Two Japanese Roundtable Conversations on Gay Life and Identity

The first piece, Fuuzoku zooshi, has been translated for some time. The second conversation, from Barazoku is more recent and is in the process of being cleaned up for a final translation now. Each "conversation" appeared in a Japanese homophile publication. The first appeared in Fuuzoku zooshi in the early 1950s, the second appeared in Barazoku in 1979.

In Japan, it is common practice to gather people together in round table conversations and to achieve a sense of common purpose or concensus on a particular topic. These conversations which are not in raw form but have already been edited for the magazines they appeared in, offer a rare view into the "popular" attitudes toward homosexuality and also provide a sense of the indicators of the changing attitudes of the times in which they appeared. My approach thus far has been to look to these conversations for changes in the identity construction of same sex men.

A portion of one conversation from Fuuzoku zoshi was reprinted in Barazoku in 1988. This discussion was part of a larger “conference” called the Sodomia Grand Conference held in 1953. This particular meeting was entitled “A Discussion of the Happinesses and Problems Associated with Homosexuality.” The participants were:

Honshi- The voice of the book’s publisher
Shikagaya- a writer for Fuuzoku zoshi
Fuji- a bar boy, age 22
Sugita- a grocery clerk, age 32
Yamamoto- a sarariiman (office worker), age 23
Yoshimura- a bar owner 42

While the disjointed nature of the comments leave many questions unanswered, as the participants jumped from one topic to another, this type of source is an extremely valuable window into the early gei world of Japan. This text has never before been translated into English.

Honshi- People were most affected by the Fuuzoku zoshi. Also there are so many readers in rural areas who are asking for letter services, introduction services and discussion services. Today the owner of the coffee shop “Yakyoku,” which has the longest history in Tokyo, is our main guest. Also boy Fuji, reader Sugita and Yamamoto are gathered here today.

I’m going to ask Shikagaya san to be the moderator today, and please, don’t be shy.

Shikagaya- We believe that same sex (doseiai) has increased after the war in every time and every place. It is surprising that the number of homos is increasing after the World War II as far as I can tell. It seems that people are considering it fashionable now even in rural areas.

Yoshimura- We have many customers coming to our place who are interested in young guys and people who like middle-aged and older guys going to Asakusa. There are all these kinds of bars in Asakusa. A person who likes young people generally goes to Shinjuku and then they drop by my shop.

Yoshimura- They also like the manly type with dispatch (teki paki). Those who like men are feminine, so their situations are very similar to those of the females. They like the manly type. So in this way they prefer also children that are like dolls rather than the ones that are feral children [like wild animals- yasei teki].

Yoshimura- I think that it was an instinctual thing with me (senten teki). There weren’t many books that were written about the homosexual.[i] However, there were some. I used to read those books and I would get excited. I felt I was a homo about the age of around 13-14 and I had my first experience at that time.

Sugita- It’s the same way as for me. I have budded (mebae) since then. However, I started to go out as of September of this year.

Sugita- No actually I grew up in the countryside and after the War[ii] we came to live in Tokyo.

Yoshimura- After the war this kind of stuff spread in a big way (hanabanashiku).

Sugita- My wife didn’t have any interest in having sex with me. Then, because of that I was dissatisfied. During the time of my dissatisfaction I began to recognize that there was a place near me where people like me gathered. I started to go to Shinjuku[iii] for the first time. But when I first went there I was scared and I didn’t do anything and I came right back home.

Sugita- I was in a movie theater. I met a guy there and he told me there are some homo places in Hibiya and Ginza .

Shikagaya- But when did you have your first sexual experience? Was it in the movie theater?

Shikagaya- There were many young people...but I’m not interested in younger people much. Also older people came there but I felt something funny, so I came back home.

Yamamoto- Yes, It was about junior high school--second grade. I was about 16 years old. Around that time the teacher from my school did stuff like that (soyu koto) to me. At that time I wasn’t at all conscious about homosexuality and also I didn’t understand, so that I just thought, “He is spoiling me (kawai garu).” However, during the war, when I was going to work for a factory as a student, something also happened there. It wasn’t like it is nowadays with everybody being aware that this sort of thing goes on. No one then spoke about it at all.

Yamamoto- I’m going to marry someone [a woman] just like ordinary people [men].

Yamamoto- That is half of what I want to do. The other half I think about my parents wishes.

Yoshimura- Mr. Sugita is supposed to become an adoptive son (goyoshi). The customers who come to my shop, there are so many who are adopted.[iv] But even though you get married with this wife for from five to eight years there are those men who leave her all alone. The situation for the wives is really pitiful.

Yamamoto- I don’t know. They think I’m just hanging around with my [male] friend.

Yoshimura- I’m trying to avoid doing that with my customers. There are some people who try to get me but I believe that is not a good thing to do for the business. So that’s why I haven’t done it and I am being patient. I get letters from customers after they return to the rural areas, and they ask me to use them as a bar boy so they can move to the city. But I know how those people are so basically I haven’t used them.

Shikagaya- Excuse me for asking so bluntly, but how do you do sex? How about Abter [uses foreign word- perhaps Dutch] and masturbating [Onanie] each other?

Yoshimura- I prefer one at a time, when we are in love. That’s how I want to have sex. I know some people who go to hotels with 4 or 5 people.

Sugita- There are--in my case when someone asked me to have a three way [with two other males] I refused.

Shikagaya- When you go to those kinds of places, they think you’re funny don’t they?

Sugita- I just started to do this recently so I’m sort of embarrassed. Even though they ask me I won’t go to someplace where I haven’t been before.

Yoshimura- Recently lots of young people are going out with Americans. They have very rich (noukou) sex, so much so that we traditional Japanese will be surprised.

Yamamoto- In my case I prefer older people, so that means passive, doesn’t it?

Shikagaya- I get notes and often they write about the details of sex. I find the vast majority participate in masturbation and fellatio.

i] This is, of course, not really true, as I have already shown that there were a substantial number of printed works which dealt with the subject of homosexuality. However, Mr. Yoshimura’s statement does testify to their invisibility in everyday life for many Japanese people.

[ii] Mr. Sugita was born in 1922 and would have been 23 at the end of the war in 1945.

[iii] This is the largest and most central gei area of Tokyo, Japan.

[iv] This was, and is, a custom whereby adults, both male and female, are adopted into families to provide a continuation of the family line. This was a common practice for instance in families where there was not a son or daughter to marry out. This practice continues today but it is less common.

We were so surprised in July when we invited some high school students to be interviewed by the magazine [Barazoku]. We were concerned that even if five people were to come they might be uneasy or refuse to talk. But as the day came, there were some twenty-five students gathered in the big entertainment room at our publishing headquarters. In addition, they were very? Clear [monoji sezu] and sporty. However as publishers and the students’ hosts, we the publishers were uncertain of how to proceed. Soon however, the young men revealed themselves not to be naïve high school students at all, but truly wild boys. In a word they did it!

Most of them were seniors and a few were sophomores with only one freshman. Not all of them were experienced. A few of them had gone to homo bars [homo baazu], especially in Shinjuku. Hino mori [Fire Forest] and Shiroi heya [The White Room] were popular places because young people congregate there. Some of the other places were The Playboy, Aladdin, Kogen [Hill], George, Popeye, Bara no yabata [Rose House], Aka tombo [Red Dragonfly] and Tatsu [Dragon].

[ In the conversation that follows: (B) stands for the editor and publisher’s moderation and commentary. In Japanese the subject is often ommitted from a sentence. In this case care was also taken by the publisher to protect the identities of the participants in the conversation. This, coupled with the inability to construct exact translations, will make some areas somewhat difficult to follow. Additionally the editor has already edited out or excerpted some of the high school students’ comments to provide more interest for the magazine's readers. All editorial comments in my translation are contained in brackets.]

From Monday to Friday if I were being a good boy, they would allow me to go out on Saturdays.

(B) Half of the boys said they had to be home by 11:00 and they couldn’t go out until midnight.

(B) The boys who hadn’t gone to bars yet were of the opinion that the bar staff would be drag queens and they would have to pay lots of money. But after they found out the clerks would be in ordinary clothes and it was going to be enough to pay a thousand yen, then they seemed interested in going. There were some boys who would try and stay in the bar for hours with just a glass of wine.

(B) It’s expected that from Shô gaku nen sei ?? [Sixth grade from ages 10-12] that boys will begin to masturbate. A few started in Junior high and two boys even said they started in kindergarten. There weren’t any difficulties caused from this.

It’s not exciting to just be picked up [hanto]. There are some guys who want to have sex with a boy of his choice and they go to movie theaters to meet them [attaku suru- a very seventies expression]. There are also men on the train platform who catch your eye and stand close to touch you. The boys who do that sort of thing have short haircuts. By comparison the boy who wants to be approached has long hair.

(B) The types the boys said they like look like Kato Tsunayoshi, Takewakei Muga, Watari Tetsuya, Ishizaka Kôji, Jô Michiru, Noguchi Goro, Gô Hiromi, and Mark Bolan. More than half of those asked had no preference for type.

The reason that we know about Barazoku is that a classmate in my senior high school, read about it in another weekly magazine, and he told the other guys about it. The reasons why he noticed his classmate was that both of them liked movies. The classmate told him that he had gone to the Tokyu Meigaza and Zensenza [movie theaters infamous for cruising]. So the other classmate tried to make fun of him and tease him. The other guy said “Hey, you know there are a lot of weird people down there” [Hena hito ippai iru darô].

And then I told him, “I haven’t been done” [Haven’t had sex, been fucked- yarareta].

None of the other classmates know about this. There are some pretty mysterious [fushigi] high schools around.

It’s Okay to let the other high school students know about this because the teacher also knows and laughs.

I have done it with my teacher. I did it. It’s not really like that exactly. What happened was that when I was a second year student I made trouble [mondai]. The guy I used to go out with talked about it with the teacher. Both of us were called before him and my boyfriend told the teacher everything. The boyfriend wanted to keep me to himself. I categorized him as a playmate and not a serious relationship. I hated being monopolized and that’s why the boyfriend consulted the teacher. Then I left home for good. After that, a bar master at the platform of the Shinjuku station recruited me. By then everyone knew about me. And it seemed to me that there were many of them [probably gay people/homosexuals]. At the bar and at school I was given some letters.

[In answer to a question] Yes, they were only from males. This had occurred since elementary school. Up to now I have just thought of marrying someone [a female] and having children in the future. Obviously, it seems that I will have to lie to myself and just make a life for myself. It would be good to find a girl who is an ideal ( ), and if I loved her that would be the best way. But if I really wanted to be honest with myself, it’s only Okay for me to live with men. Everybody in the school hates to use the word “homo.” Those who are in the literature club, they call me “nyu labu pataan” [from the English new love pattern], or the “new love equation” (hôteishiki). This situation (jôtai) is a good one isn’t it? It’s not a bad sophomoric excuse, is it (kokôsei dashi)?

I want to be able not only to do it in the toilet or in a dark room but also in the light of day. There isn’t any trouble in the school so far and I think it’s becoming publicly accepted (kônin) isn’t it?

It depends on the person who sends it. But, in general, I’ll say “thank you” even if the guy is not attractive to me. I can include the guy I was talking about before in the list of my friends now. I don’t esteem appearances. I don’t know about a boy’s good points at first. I have to search for that. Oh no, it’s not really a search. It’s just that I need some time and room [kikan ba] to understand the person more deeply. I need the opportunity to see a partner. I won’t be able to say I dislike you just like that. I think that it’s improper to use the word hate.

(B) There are an increasing number of high school students who are clear and concise like this. I asked their preferences. I asked them about the other males in the room from left to right.

(B) This boy answered unashamedly. However, later those two became a couple. Still, everybody seemed like they had a strong longing for the Platonic aspects of a relationship and to give each other love. They also say they wanted to have a partner who was also like that. Having said this, there weren’t any boys who had fallen love or had a serious relationship.

I’m used to playing around with a lot of guys so I might be easily bored (akiru).

(B) Some of the boys asked what was the purpose of the others was in having come to this meeting.

I thought I may have a friend who is my age and he can talk about everything to these guys. So that’s why I came.

Wa, I thought sex led from a Platonic relationship naturally. But when I read this magazine, Barazoku, it made it sound like it all happened so instantaneously [soku]. I’d like the magazine to emphasize more of the spiritual side. But it’s probable that that won’t please your audience will it?

This magazine is right wing. I think this because they show tattoos as a beautiful things and glorify them [bika].

From the correspondence one gets the impression that every writer is really masculine. But this doesn’t match reality. I’m not eager to write letters for this reason. Those who exaggerate their self-descriptions in the letters want too much from their companions. They mustn’t receive many responses to their queries.

(B) There was a sign that there was a discussion for high school students that had been posted in the morning on the ground floor of the Dainishi Shôbô building [The publisher of Barazoku]. Even though there was a sign that said adults invited from 1:00 the high school students continued on until 1:30. We got a report that there were many adults waiting outside the room in the third floor hall. We led the students up the stairs. They sat in a circle and quickly relaxed as they had already spent time talking together. They spoke just as they liked. Some of the boys who had come to the conversation seemed aggressive and took the lead in controlling the conversation. The results reflect the ways that the world is changing.

When everybody sees us? Everybody's eyes will flutter [me shiro kuro an expression of excitement].

If we go around to a variety of places, little by little the group will diminish.

It will probably be you. (points to a boy dressed very flamboyantly [hade hade ruku] (laughter).

This is called baggy. If you go to Roppongi you’ll see this is the hottest thing.

Old men say, “ There’s luck in the leftovers.” but that’s only true for them.

He seems like the one who will go the farthest in the group doesn’t he? (points to a boy who has short hair and is in his junior year of high school. The boy is very butch [otoko poi] and he earlier said that he would be excited by tattoos. Everyone stared at him as if he were very strange).

(B) A tumult followed and someone was sent from the floor below to tell us to be quiet. The door to the stairs was closed. The adults downstairs became excited even though they couldn’t possibly have heard the words of the boys.

I’ve gone out with multiple partners and it was difficult to keep my stories straight. One of the parties was really serious. So it was difficult.

The one I’m going out with now is the best so far (laughs). Good. Really Good. Hot Stuff [jôtama].

Seriously, I have three people who are sugar daddy’s [patron]. I have talked them into giving me money and I was playing around every day. (laughs).

All of them are middle-aged. So even though we don’t have sex they give me money.

That’s not true. Now they’re doing elections and he’s really busy so we can really see each other until that’s over. Oh no. I shouldn’t have said that. What if he reads this?

Yes, it’s still good if they don’t have money too. But they asked me how much to go out with you and then I said Okay.

I know that it’s naughty to be given money but it’s also wasteful to reject it.

People say that for long term relationships it’s important to have a good personality. But at first it’s always the face and the style.

There’s no relationship to all that. If the mood and ambience is good it’s fine isn’t it? Foreigners are big aren’t they?

Me, I’ve seen some pornography and the blacks are really something aren’t they? Like this big (gestures to his knee). I was surprised.

Of course it’s better to have a bigger thing but the question here is do you love him or not?

But if the guy has a small dick then people who like doing it from the back [bakku yaru hito wa] will be bored. But for a person who doesn’t have anal sex, that’s of little importance.

Often when I read a novel or something like that, it’s all exaggerated to sound like it’s very good and when I finish reading it I’ll try the next time. But painful is painful.

(B) (After this young man says this everyone seems at a loss for what to say. Like “That’s true.”)

(B) The Boy who says this wants to find the reason for using men’s asses. It a rhetoric thing. We don’t have to think about any answer.