Brooklyn College
WEDNESDAY, APRIL 1, 1953

UNITED STATES SENATE,
SUBCOMMITTEE TO IVNESTIGATE THE ADMINISTRATION
OF THE INTERNAL SECURITY ACT AND OTHER INTERNAL
SECURITY LAWS, OF THE COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY,
Washington, D.C.                                        
 
     The subcommittee met, pursuant to call, at 2 p. m., in room 357, Senate Office Building, Hon. Herman Welker presiding.
     Present : Senator Welker.
     Also present: Robert Morris, subcommittee counsel; and Benjamin Mandel, research director.
 
     Senator WELKER. The subcommittee will come to order.
      Mr. MORRIS. Will you stand and be sworn?
      Senator WELKER. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give the subcommittee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
      Mr. GOLDMAN. So I do.

  TESTIMONY OF IRVING GOLDMAN, BROOKLYN, N. Y., ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL, WILLIAM J. BUTLER, OF ARTHUR GARFIELD HAYS, NEW YORK, N. Y.

      Senator WELKER. State your name, residence, and occupation.
      Mr. GOLDMAN. My name is Irving Goldman. I live in Brooklyn, N. Y., and I am a professor of anthropology.
      Senator WELBER. Where?
      Mr. GOLDMAN. At. Sarah Lawrence College.
      Senator WELKER. Very well, counsel, you may proceed.
      Mr. MORRIS. Where do you reside in Brooklyn .
      Mr. GoLDMAN. I beg your pardon?
      Mr. BUTLER. I would. like to note an objection on the record that I think I should be allowed to sit next to the witness.
 Senator WELKER. Your objection may be noted on the record, and the acting chairman will inform you that you will be seated here as other attorneys have been seated, and at any time when you have a valid reason to confer with your client, we will be most happy to permit you to do so.
      Mr. MORRIS. What is your address in Brooklyn?
      Mr. GOLDMAN. 33 Remsen Street, Brooklyn. Mr. MORRIS. What is your present occupation, Mr. Goldman?
      Mr. GOLDMAN. I am professor of anthropology at Sarah Lawrence College.
      Mr. MORRIS. From what university have you obtained your degree?

Page 721


      Mr. GOLDMAN. I have a bachelor of science degree from Brooklyn.College.
      Mr. MORRIS. When did you obtain this B. S. from Brooklyn College?
      Mr. GOLDMAN. 1933.
      Mr. MORRIS. What other degrees do you hold?
      Mr. GOLDMAN. A Ph D.
      Mr. MORRIS. What. university did you obtain your Ph. D. at?
      Mr. GOLDMAN. Columbia.
       Mr. MORRIS. In what year?
      Mr. GOLDMAN. 1941.
      Mr. MORRIS. After 1933 when you obtained your B. S. from Brooklyn College, how did you become employed?
       Mr. GOLDMAN. After 1933?
      Mr. MORRIS. Yes .
      Mr. GOLDMAN. I went to graduate school and was a graduate student taking courses from 1933 until 1935.
      Mr: MORRIS. Where were you taking those courses?
      Mr. GOLDMAN. At Columbia University.
      Mr. MORRIS. What courses were they?
      Mr. GOLDMAN. Well, the general courses leading to a degree in anthropology, a variety of courses in the field of anthropology and the field of psychology.
      Mr. MORRIS. You were there from 1933 to 1935?
      Mr. GOLDMAN. Taking courses, sir.
      Mr. MORRIS. What did you do after 1935, Mr. Goldman?
      Mr. GOLDMAN. In 1935 I had a research grant from Columbia University, and I did field work among Indians in British Columbia.
      Mr. MORRIS. How long did you do that?
       Mr. GOLDMAN. Until some time in 1936.
      Mr. MORRIS. So from the year 1935 to 1936 you were in British Columbia?
      Mr. GOLDMAN. The better part of that year.
      Senator WELKER. Counsel, may we suspend at this time?
      May we have the attorney's name and address for the record, please?
     Mr. BUTLER. Arthur Garfield Hays, 120 Broadway, New York, N. Y., by William J. Butler of counsel.
     Mr. MORRIS. Mr. Goldman, what was your next occupation, your next assignment?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. Between 1936 and 1937 I was appointed assistant in anthropology at Columbia University.
     Mr. MORRIS. What did you do thereafter, after 1937?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. Well, thereafter I was part assistant to Prof. Franz, Boas, who was chairman of the anthropology department of Columbia University, and some time in 1937 I taught a number of classes in the university extension of Columbia University.
     Mr. MORRIS. How long did you have that assignment?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. The teaching?
     Mr. MORRIS. The teaching assignment.
     Mr. GOLDMAN. One semester.
     Mr. MORRIS. One semester?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. That is right.
     Mr. MORRIS. That took you. up then to January1938?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. As far as I can recall.

Page 722


     Mr. GOLDMAN. I don't think so. He's not an anthropologist.
     Mr. MORRIS. I see. As long as you were associated with Boas, was Finkelstein an assistant of any kind?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. As an assistant? Not to my knowledge.
     Mr. MORRIS. Will you tell us what you did after January 1938?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. Well, between January 1938 and March 1939 I might say I continued to work for Professor Boas.
     Mr. MORRIS. What else did you do during that period?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. I was doing some of my own research.
     Mr. MORRIS. Was that independent research?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. Yes, sir.
     Mr. MORRIS. Did you operate under a grant?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. No; I was operating—I don't recall that I was operating under a grant. I was being paid from funds of Professor Boas.
     Mr. MORRIS. Private, Professor Boas' own funds?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. No, these were the operating funds of the anthropology department.
     Mr. MORRIS. What did you do then after March 1939?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. I went to South America.
     Mr. MORRIS. Under what auspices?
     Mr. GoLDMAN. Under a research grant from Columbia University.
     Mr. MORRIS. Where did you go in South America?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. I went to Colombia.
     Mr. MORRIS. Colombia, South America?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. Correct.
     Mr. MORRIS. How long did you stay there?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. Until about August 1940.
     Mr. MORRIS. Then did you return to Columbia?
     Mr. GOLMAN. Not in any official capacity at all.
     Mr. MORRIS. What did you do?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. Well, I just visited the library and visited the department. I no longer had any official or paid connection with the university.
     Mr. MORRIS. What was your source of income during that period, Mr. Goldman?

Page 723


     Mr. MORRIS. What did you do after that, Mr. Goldman?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. I guess I was—well, I was working on anthropological problems working as an assistant to Prof. Franz Boas.
     Mr. MORRIS. How many assistants did Franz Boas have at that time?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. There were two kinds of assistants; there was the departmental assistant, and there was the direct assistant to Professor Boas. I served 1 year as departmental assistant, and after that I was an assistant assigned to Professor Boas, helping him in research on Indians of British Columbia.
     Mr. MORRIS. I see. Who were the other assistants to Mr. Boas at that time?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. Well, he had a variety of people working with him in and out. I can't recall offhand who they all were. There was a fellow working with him on statistical problems.
     Mr. MORRIS. Who was he?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. Jacobs, or something, I think his name was.
     Mr. MORRIS.. Was Mr. Moses Finkelstein working with Mr. Boas at that time?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. I was; still, living off the proceeds of the research grant.
     Mr. MORRIS. That brought us up to August 1940 . How did you employ yourself after that, Mr. Goldman?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. I got a job teaching at Brooklyn College in September 1940.
     Mr. MORRIS. How did you obtain that employment in Brooklyn College?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. By making an application to the . president of the college.
     Mr. MORRIS. Who was the president of the college in 1940?
     Mr GOLDMAN. Dr. Harry Gideonse, I believe.
     Mr. MORRIS. Did you work in anthropology at Brooklyn College?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. At Brooklyn I taught anthropology.
     Mr. MORRIS. Had you known prior to 1940 any members of the anthropology department in Brooklyn College?
     Mr. GoLDMAN. Prior to 1940, any members of the anthropology department; yes.
     Mr. MORRIS. Whom did you know ? Whom were you acquainted. with at that time?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. Dr. May Edel.
     Mr. MORRIS. Is. that a woman's name, M-a-y?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. Yes.
     Mr. MORRIS. Is she related to Abraham Edel?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. She is his wife.
     Mr. MORRIS. Who else?
     Mr. GoLDMAN. Dr. Alexander Lesser.
     Mr. MORRIS. Was he at Brooklyn College at that time?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. To the best of my recollection I think so.
     Mr. MORRIS. Is it your testimony that they. are the two people in the department of anthropology in. Brooklyn College whom you knew?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. As far as I can recollect. I have some haziness, I must say, as to whether, Dr. Lesser was employed just at that time in Brooklyn College. I could check.
     Mr. MORRIS. How long did you stay at Brooklyn. College?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. Until. March 1942.
     Mr. MORRIS. March 1942. What did you do then?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. I was employed by the United States Government.
     Mr. MORRIS. You went to work with the United States Government?
      Mr.GOLDMAN. That is correct.
     Mr. MORRIS. What department of the United States Government?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. The Coordinator of Inter-American Affairs.
     Mr. MORRIS. The Coordinator of Inter-American Affairs?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. Yes.
     Mr. MORRIS. Would you describe the nature of that assignment?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. I was assigned as an anlyst, and I was classified at one time as a publicist, but essentially I was a research analyst.
     Mr. MORRIS. I see. Will you tell us the circumstances. leading to your obtaining that employment?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. Yes. Prior to sometime around January or February of 1942, I wanted a job with the United States Government,, and I had traveled around a lot of offices. Among the offices I visited was the Office of the Coordinator of Inter-American Affairs. There

Page 724


was an anthropologist employed in the Division of Reports at the Coordinator of Inter-American Affairs whom I had met because he done field work in Colombia as well, and I wrote a letter to him asking him if there was an opening in his office?
I was asked to come up for an interview, and subsequently I was employed
     Mr. MORRIS.Who was. that anthropologist that you refer to?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. Dr. Willard Park.
     Mr. MORRIS. Had you known Dr. Willard Park prior to that time?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. I had met him at anthropological meetings, and I had.had a session with him discussing research possibilities in South America.
     Mr. MORRIS. How long did you remain with the Coordinator of Inter-American Affairs?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. To the best of my knowledge until the end of March 1943, there or thereabouts.
     Mr. MORRIS. What was the general nature of your work with that department?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. I did a variety, of reports on subjects upon assignment. I did a certain amount of analysis of political events in Latin America, I wrote.reports dealing with certain economic problems in Latin America, and I wrote reports which related rather more or less directly to my experience in Latin America as an anthropologist.
     Mr. MORRIS. All right, what did you do after 1943 at the end of your assignment which you have described?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. I enlisted in the United States Army.
     Mr. MORRIS. ,You enlisted in the United States Army?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. Correct.
     Mr. MORRIS. How:long did you stay in the United States Army?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. Until, I believe, sometime in 1945, I believe. May I consult Mr. Butler?
     Mr., MORRIS. You may.
     Mr. GOLDMAN (after conferring with counsel). According to my records I was inducted on the 23d of March 1943, and I think I was released from the Army for. assignment to the State Department sometime in 1945.
     Mr. MORRIS. Would you tell us the circumstances of your being released from the Army to work with the State Department?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. In the Army I had been assigned to the Office of Strategic Services, and as a matter of general policy I and others were transferred from the OSS into the State Department.
     Mr. MORRis. I see. What did you do with the OSS?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. In the OSS I continued working on Latin-American affairs; I was a political analyst. Part of the time I was a section chief dealing with a particular area in Latin America.
     Mr. MORRIS. What was the particular area?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. It shifted around. Mostly I dealt with the River Plate countries, Argentina, Uruguay, Bolivia, Paraguay.
     Mr. MORRIS, When did you first meet–
     Mr.GoLDMAN. I might add, too, I also dealt with Brazil.
     Mr. MORRIS. I see. I might say for the record, Mr. Goldman, that we have had testimony before this committee that one, Maurice Halperin was during the war years a member of a Soviet espionage ring

Page 725


in Washington. There was the testimony of Miss Elizabeth Bentley concerning Halperin. We had additional testimony that Maurice Halperin was a representative of the Communist Party in Texas and Oklahoma to Mexico.
     Mr. Halperin was called in as a witness from Boston last week and was asked about these allegations in connection with whether or not he was a member of the Soviet espionage ring in Washington which had operated during the war. He refused to say whether he was a Communist during that time; that is, during the war, whether he had met with Elizabeth Bentley, the witness; whether he had paid Communist Party dues to Miss Bentley; whether or not he had transmitted information to Miss Bentley, and generally invoked the fifth amendment, his rights under the fifth amendment on all questions; relating to Communist membership at that time.
     Mr. Goldman, I would like to ask you when you first met Maurice Halperin.
     Mr. GOLDMAN. To the best of my knowledge, I first met Mr. Halperin some time in 1943.
     Mr. MORRIS. What were the circumstances?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. During the period of my employment at the Coordinator of Inter-American Affairs.
     Mr. MORRIS. Did he have a position with the Coordinator of Inter-American Affairs?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. He did not.
     Mr. MORRIS. What was he doing at the time?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. He had a position with the OSS, which was then called by another set of alphabet letters that I don't recall. It might have been .Office of—I am sorry, I don't recall what it was called then. It then became the OSS, Coordinator of Information.
     Mr. MORRIS. Coordinator of Information?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. That is right.
     Mr. MORRIS. Is it your testimony that you met him in 1943 for the first time?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. It is my testimony that I met him some time during my employment with the Coordinator of Inter-American Affairs.
     Mr. MORRIS. What have been your associations with Maurice Halperin since that time?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. During the period of my 1-year employment with the CIAA I believe I met him no more than about 2 times, 1 on a direct matter of business, and another time I think there was some sort of luncheon of people working in Inter-American Affairs. I did not to the best. of my knowledge, did not see, Mr. Halperin again, until I was assigned to his office in the OSS as a soldier.
     Mr. MORRIS. Who assigned you to that position? We would like all the circumstances relating to your being assigned. What was your rank in the Army at that time, Mr. Goldman?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. At that time I was a corporal.
     Mr. MORRIS. Give us all the circumstances leading up to your being a corporal in the United States Army being assigned to OSS. I mean,, what efforts were made on your part to obtain that position, and what efforts were made on the part of others to your knowledge to put you in this position?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. At some time, to the best of my recollection, while I was at Fort Riley. No, I am sorry, while I was in the ASTP,

Page 726


Army specialized training program, at the University of Nebraska where I had been sent to receive training in area work in the Spanish-Latin American area work. At that time I received a letter from Mr. Halperin stating, asking, whether I would be interested in being transferred to his organization in order to continue with Latin-American work.
     I wrote back saying yes, I might be interested.
     Mr. MORRIS. Who wrote this letter to you, Mr. Goldman?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. Yes.
     Mr. MORRIS. Who wrote the letter?
     Mr. GOLDMAN.  Mr. Halperin.
     Senator WELKER.  How long had you known Mr. Halperin at that time?
     Mr. GOLDMAN.  As I have already stated.
     Senator WELKER.  I want it again, please.
     Mr. Goldman. I had met him only several times during the period I was employed with the Coordinator of Inter-American Affairs.
     Mr. MORRIS.  Did. he have an opportunity to observe your work?
     Mr. GOLDMAN.  I believe he had an opportunity to be aware of my work because of this reason, that when I was working at the Coordinator of Inter-American Affairs, the parallel agency was the office in which Mr. Halperin worked in the OSS, and they were sort of in a way, sort of rival agencies.  I imagine our reports went in normal course of business to them, and some of their reports went in the normal course of business to our office, and I assume he must have had knowledge of my work.
     Senator WELKER.  Is that how he got the information that you were in the Army?
     Mr. GOLDMAN.  He was informed, I guess, by my previous employer with whom I kept up a little correspondence, sending him a card every now and then.
     Senator WELKER.  Again, your previous employer?
     Mr. GOLDMAN.  Was Mr. Robert Miller, who was Chief of the Division of Reports.
     Senator WELKER.  Did you ever have any correspondence with Halperin at all, yourself, prior to being invited to join?
     Mr. Goldman.  No, sir.
     Mr. MORRIS.  When did you first learn that Mr. Halperin had been identified in sworn testimony as a member of an espionage ring during this period?
     Mr. GOLDMAN.  I read it in the newspapers at the time.
     Mr. MORRIS. That is in1948?
     Mr. GOLDMAN.  Whenever it was that Miss Benley gave her testimony.
     Mr. MORRIS.  Miss Bentley testified, Mr. Goldman, I believe in 1948.
     Mr. GOLDMAN.  I guess it must have been at that time.
     Mr. MORRIS.  When did you first hear that Robert T. Miller had been identified as a member of the espionage ring through sworn testimony?
     Mr. Goldman.  I am not sure that I recall that he was identified with an espionage ring.
     Mr. MORRIS.  What do you recall about Robert T. Miller?  He was mentioned by Miss Bentley, was he not, during this testimony?
     Mr. GoLDMAN.  I do recall that he was in some kind of hot water.  It must have been at that period.

Page 727


     Mr. MORRIS. You say he was your previous employer prior to the time that you left the Coordinator of Inter-American Affairs Office to go into the Army?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. That is correct.
     Mr. MORRIS. Was it Miller who recommended you to Halperin?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. I daresay it was.
     Mr. MORRIS. Mr. Goldman, will you. tell us what your next assignment was?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. After what?
     Mr. MORRIS. After your OSS assignment?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. In the State Department.
     Mr. MORRIS. What did you do in the State Department?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. My first assignment was Acting Chief of the Division of—well, the Latin American Division in the Office of Intelligence and Research. After that a permanent chief was installed, and I became a section chief in that office.
     Mr. MORRIS. Who were your superiors at that time?
     Mr. GoLDMAN. Dr. Hussey, H-u-s-s-e-y. I might say there was an interim period, too, when my superior was Dr. Kendall, K-e-n-d-a-1-1.
     Mr. MORRlS. How long did you remain in the State Department?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. Until June 23, 1947.
     Mr. MORRIS. Will you give us the circumstances of your leaving the State Department at that time?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. Yes. I was dismissed as a security risk.
     Mr. MORRIS. Were you dismissed as a security risk under the so called MeCarran rider of the appropriation act, Appropriations Committee Act?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. You have me there.
     Mr. MORRIS. Will you tell us the circumstances of your being dismissed as a security risk?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. I received my notice that I was being dismissed in the interests of the United States Government on June 23, 1947.
     Mr. MORRIS. What did you do after that time?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. May I add to that that thereafter this dismissal was changed to resignation without prejudice?
     Mr. MORRIS. Will you tell us the circumstances surrounding the change from your dismissal as a security risk to a resignation?
     Mr. GOLDMAM. Yes. I applied to counsel and asked for a statement of charges, I guess, asked for a hearing, and none of that was ever granted, and after some time the State Department issued, sent me; a letter notifying me that my dismissal had been changed to resignation without prejudice.
     Mr. MORRIS. Who in the State Department did you confer with at that time in effecting this change?
     Mr. GoLDMAN. I conferred with no one.
     Mr. MORRIS. You had no conversations with officials in the State Department surrounding the efforts of having your dismissal changed to a resignation?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. I had one conversation with Mr. Arch Jean. That was just a matter within days after the dismissal notice that I asked him could he clarify. the dismissal notice. He said "No," and I believe: that was the last connection I had with any State Departmen official.

Page 728


     Senator WELKER. Did you know of anyone in your behalf who conferred with anyone in the State Department to change your status?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. All I can say on that is that I had counsel who were seeking—not to change the status but were seeking to find out the causes or get a statement of charges for the dismissal.
     Mr. MORRIS. Who was the counsel?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. My counsel was the firm of Thurman Arnold, Porter & Fortas.
     Senator WELKER. And they merely conferred without presenting any evidence, and as a result your status was changed, is that correct? You were permitted to resign without prejudice?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. So I understand, sir.
     Senator WELKER. Sir?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. So I understand. I don't know, I can't say, whether they conferred. I have no way of knowing what were the actual circumstances of the change of that order.
     Mr. MORRIS. What did you do subsequent to your leaving the State Department in 1947?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. I made application for a position at Sarah Lawrence Cdllege
     Mr. MORRIS. With whom did you make application?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. With the president of the college.
     Mr. MORRIS. Did you deal with him directly or through somebody in the anthropology department?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. Well, I can tell you the circumstances. I had called first Prof. Ruth Benedict in the anthropology department. Mr.           Mr. MORRIS. Will you identify Ruth Benedict for us?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. Ruth Benedict was chairman of the department of anthropology at Columbia. University.
     Mr. MORRIS. Was she the person who with Gene Weltfish wrote a book called the Races of Mankind?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. Yes.
     Mr. MORRIS. Had you known her prior to that time?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. Known whom?
     Mr. MORRIS. Ruth Benedict.
     Mr. GOLDMAN. Yes; she was my teacher at Columbia.
     Mr. MORRIS. Had you known Gene Weltfish?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. Yes.
     Mr. MORRIS. Would you tell us further how you obtained your positioni in the anthropology department at Sarah Lawrence College?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. Professor Benedict inquired around about what jobs were available; I told her I was in need of a job. She called me to say that they were looking for an anthropologist at Sarah Lawrence College, and would I apply, which I did. I was asked to come down for an interview, and I was interviewed by the president of the college and the members of the advisory committee.
     Mr. MORRIS. Will you tell us who the president of the college was and who the members of the advisory committee were?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. The president of the college was Harold Taylor.
     Mr.. MORRIS. Who were the members of the advisory committee?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. I can't recall all the names.: There was, I believe, Mrs. McMaster. I believe the dean of the college, Dean Raushenbush, was present, and perhaps Dr. Helen Lynd; I am not sure.

Page 729


     Mr. MORRIS. Since that time you have been on the faculty of Sarah Lawrence College?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. That is correct.
     Mr. MORRIS. And you are now a professor of anthropology at Sarah Lawrence?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. That is so.
     Mr. MORRIS. How many students do you have?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. Well, I have 16 students in one class and 14 in another, a total of 30 students.
     Mr. MORRIS. That is the total of the students you are teaching at this time?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. That is correct.
     Mr. MORRIS. Are you teaching anywhere else?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. No, sir.
     Mr. MORRIS. Have you taught any place else since 1947?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. Yes.
     Mr. MORRIS. Where have you taught?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. At New York University.
     Mr. MORRIS. What. courses did you give there?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. Cultural anthropology in the summer session, and I should explain perhaps for the record that when I say "New York University" this is a joint summer session conducted by Sarah Lawrence College and New York University, and that the salaries of the faculty were paid by New York University, and other expenses were taken care of by the college. It was a joint operation.
     Mr. MORRIS. All right. Now, Mr. Goldman, while you were an assistant anthropologist at Columbia University, 1936-37, were you a member of the Communist Party?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. Yes; I was.
     Mr. MORRIS. Were you assigned to a unit of the Communist Party at Columbia at that time?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. Yes; I was.
     Mr. MORRIS. What was the unit called?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. I don't think it had a name.
     Mr. MORRIS. How many members were there in the unit?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. Oh, about around a dozen or so or less.
     Mr. MORRIS. Were you a member of the Communist Party while you were an assistant to Professor Boas at Columbia University?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. We might clarify that question by saying that I was a member of the Communist Party from sometime in 1936, perhaps late in 1936, until 1942.
     Mr. MORRIS. Well, I would like to know what unit you were assigned to all during that period. You say you were in the Columbia unit in the period 1936 to 1937. Now how long did you stay in that unit?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. Until March 1939.
     Mr. MORRiS. March 1939. Were you transferred at that time?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. No. I went to South America; I was not transferred.
     Mr. MORRIS. What did you do about your Communist Party membership when you went to South America?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. Nothing.
     Mr. MORRIS. You mean you just retained your membership in that unit, but you were on leave, is that it?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. I guess so.

Page 730


     Mr. MORRIS. Did you meet with any leaders of the Communist Party while you were in South America?
     Mr .GOLDMAN. Yes, I did on one occasion out of curiosity. I visited the headquarters of the Communist Party of Colombia just to look around.
     Mr. MORRIS. I see. When did you return from South America?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. I think it was in August 1940.
     Mr. MORRIS. Did you return to the Columbia unit of the Communist Party at that time?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. Well, I had no connection with Columbia. any more. I don't know. I don't think I did return to that unit.
     Mr. MORRIS. Were your assigned to another unit of the Communist Party at that time?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. I think I was sort of up in the air at that time.
     Mr. MORRIS. Did you join the Brooklyn College unit of the Communist party?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. Yes; I did.
     Mr. MORRIS. How many members were there in the Brooklyn College unit of the Communist Party?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. Oh, about the same number.
     Mr. MORRIS. About 12?
     Mr. GOLDMAN.In the unit I was in, yes.
     Mr. MORRIS. How many such units were there at Brooklyn College?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. Well, so far as I know I was in the evening session, and that was the unit for the evening session, and there was the day session. There must have been a unit for the day session.
     Mr. MORRIS. Have you not sat in on meetings of the two units where the day session and the evening session people met?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. I believe on one occasion I did.
     Mr. MORRIS. Could you estimate from that one occasion how many people from the day session sat in on that evening session meeting, the joint meeting?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. At that particular one as I recall there must have been about 6 or 7.
     Mr. MORRIS. Is it your testimony that you left the Communist Party in 1942?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. So it is.
     Senator WELKER. Counsel, may I have a question there, please? How often did the party unit meet at Brooklyn College?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. Once a week.
     Senator WELKER. You attended quite regularly?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. More or less, yes, sir.
     Senator WELKER., And about the same number of members, comrades, met each night; is that correct?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. Well, it was sort of an in or out situation. People who were leaving it, it varied around that number, I guess.
     Mr. MORRIS. Now when you left the Brooklyn College unit of the Communist Party, you then worked, subsequent to that you worked, under Maurice Halperin, did you not?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. No.
     Mr. MORRIS. Subsequent to that you worked under Maurice Halperin
     Mr. GOLDMAN. I did not work under Maurice Halperin until I was assigned to the OSS.

Page 731


     Mr. MORRIS. That is what I mean, at some time subsequent?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. Yes.
     Mr. MORRIS. Will you tell us about your association with Halperin?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. Part of the time I was a section chief in his office and I took part in regular office conferences.
     Mr. MORRIS. Has your association with Mr. Maurice Halperin extended down to date?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. The last time I saw Maurice Halperin was sometime before Thanksgiving of last year.
     Mr. MORRIS. Under what circumstances did you see him?
     Mt. GOLDMAN. He was attending, he told me, some scholarly meeting in New York. He had come to New York, and he called me, and he came to our house.
     Mr. MORRIS. When did you last see Robert T. Miller?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. Well, I dropped by Robert T. Miller's house some time last year.
     Mr. MORRIS. Now that was at that time subsequent to the time that Mr. Miller was identified by Miss Bentley as a wartime Communist?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. That is correct.
     Mr. MORRIS. When did you last see May Edel?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. Oh, I talked to her on the telephone a couple of weeks ago. I haven't seen her in several months.
     Mr. MORRIS. To your knowledge has May Edel been a teacher at the Jefferson School for Social Science?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. No, I never heard of that.
     Mr. MORRIS. When have you last seen Dr. Gene Weltfish?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. Well, I haven't seen her in quite a while. I haven’t seen Dr. Weltfish in quite a while. I ran into her on the campus of Columbia when I was going to the library, maybe sometime last year, I don't–
     Mr. MORRIS. What was the nature of your conversation with her at that time?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. Sort of hello and goodby.
     Mr. MORRIS. What was the nature of your conversation with May Edel?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. Well, she had written a book on anthropology. I called her up to tell her I had seen the book, thought it was a nice job and wished her well with it.
     Mr. MORRIS. Mr. Mandel, do we have anything in the records to show that May Edel was in fact a teacher at the Jefferson School?
     Mr. MANDEL. The. fall term catalog, 1944, of the Jefferson School of Social Science shows May Edel as an instructor and gives her collegiate record.
     Mr. MORRIS. Will you give the collegiate record of May Edel.
     Mr. GOLDMAN. What was that year?
     Mr. MORRIS. 1944. That, is the one Mr. Mandel has here.
     Mr. GOLDMAN. I would like you to recall that in 1944 I was not in New York.
     Mr. MORRIS. That is true, but there may be other editions. Mr: Mandel has the edition of 1944, and during that period she was listed as a teacher at the Jefferson School. As you know, the Jefferson School is one of the Communist training schools.

Page 732


     Mr. BUTLER. I would like to point out on the record that she wasn't necessarily an instructor. She could be a guest lecturer at one time at the school.
     Mr. MORRIS. Mr. Chairman, the book will speak for itself, and if necessary we can have Miss May Edel testify.
     Is she the wife of Abraham Edel?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. That is right.
     Mr. MORRIS. Do you know to your knowledge whether Mr. Abraham Edel was a teacher at that same school?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. What school?
     Mr. MORRIS. At the Jefferson School.
     Mr. GOLDMAN. No.
     Mr. MORRIS. Mr. Chairman, Abraham Edel, who is now on the faculty of City College, I believe?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. Yes.
     Mr. MORRIS. Has acknowledged in executive session testimony that he did teach at the Jefferson School.
     Mt. GOLDMAN. He never told me.
     Mr. MORRIS. It speaks for itself.
     Mr. GoLDMAN. Sure.
     Mr. MORRIS. Do you know a man named Woodrow Wilson Borah?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. Yes.
     Mr. MORRIS. Was he dismissed from the State Department under the same circumstances as you originally?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. Yes.
     Mr. MORRIS. When had you last seen Mr. Woodrow Wilson Borah?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. Gentlemen, that was many, many years ago, I imagine some time—I don't think I saw him after 1948. I won't swear to the exact date except that many years have passed since I have seen him.
     Mr. MORRIS. What was that occasion?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. The occasion of my last seeing him?
     Mr. MORRIS. Yes.
     Mr. GOLDMAN. We had dinner together.
     Senator WELKER. Where?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. Where?
     Senator WELKER. Yes.
     Mr. GOLDMAN. In a little Chinese restaurant in Brooklyn.
     Senator WELKER. Is that the only time your have seen him, Mr. Goldman?
     Mr: GOLDMAN. The only time I have seen him since when?
     Mr. BUTLER. The last time?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. Yes; the last time. He left for California, and since he went to California I have not seen him.
     Mr. MORRIS. Mr. Goldman, I have here an interim report on hearings regarding Communist espionage published by the Committee on Un-American Activities in the House of Representatives, 1948, and one paragraph reads as follows:

     Miss Bentley further testified that there were certain individuals employed in the Government who cooperated in obtaining information from the files of the Government for the use of Russian agents but who were not actually attached & to either the Silvermaster or Perlo groups. These individuals as named by Miss Bentley and the governmental agency with which they were employed during the period concerned in the testimony are as follows:
Page 733


     One, Michael Greenberg, Board of Economic Warfare; Foreign Economic Administration; specialist on China.
     Did you ever meet with Michael Greenberg ?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. To the best of my knowledge, no.
     Mr. MORRIS. Joseph Gregg, Coordinator of Inter-American Affairs assistant in Research Division. Did you ever meet with Joseph Gregg?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. Yes.
     Mr. ,MORRIS. Did you know him well?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. I wouldn't say well.
     Mr. MORRIS. Did you ever meet Miss Elizabeth Bentley?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. No.
     Mr. MORRIS. J. Julius Joseph from the Office of Strategic Services, Japanese Division?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. The name doesn't ring a bell at all.
     Mr. MORRIS. Duncan Chaplin Lee, Office of Strategic Services, legal adviser to Gen. Donovan?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. I don't believe I ever met that gentleman.
     Mr. MORRIS. Next is Willard Z. Park, coordinator of Inter-American Mr. Affairs?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. That is correct.
     Mr. MORRIS. Pardon?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. Yes; I told you I had met him.
     Mr. MORRIS. Will you tell us the extent of your association with Mr. Park?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. As I have already indicated, I had met Mr. Park first as an anthropologist at anthropological meetings, and I had discussed with him problems of doing anthropological research in Colombia, and then I met him when I was employed at the Coordinator of Inter-American Affairs.
     Mr. MORRIS. Mr. Bernard Redmont?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. I know the name, and have seen Mr. Redmont. I cannot say that we are acquainted, sir.
     Mr. MORRIS. The last name on the list is Helen Tenney, Office of Strategic Services?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. I am pretty certain I have never met her.
     Mr. MORRIS. Have you discussed your work, Government work, with any of the people on this list? Some of them you necessarily have; have you not?
     Mr. GOLDMAN, The only people on this list with whom I discussed my Government work were the people with whom I was employed.
     Mr. MORRIS.. Is it your testimony that during this period of time you were not a member of the Communist Party?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. That is my testimony.
     Mr. MORRIS. Is it your testimony that you were not during this period working with an espionage-ring in Washington?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. That is certainly my testimony.
     Senator WELKER. Pardon me, counselor:
     Counselor Butler and Mr. Goldman, would you have any objection to your client being photographed?
     Mr.BUTLER. Yes; we would rather not.
     Senator. WELKER. Very well, your objection will be honored.
     Mr. MORRIS. Mr. Goldman, will you tell us who was the head, who was the leader, of the Communist unit at Columbia while you were a member of that unit?
Page 734


     Mr. GOLDMAN. I am sorry; as I told you and the committee in executive session. I cannot as a matter of principle reveal those names.
     Senator WELKER. Now may I have the question and the answer, please?
     (The last question and answer were read by the reporter.)
     Mr. MORRIS. What is the principle that you mentioned then?
     Mr: GOLDMAN. The principle, I think, is a simple one which is that I cannot inform on others to get others into trouble; particularly since I have no knowledge that any of these individuals had ever committed any offense against the security of the United States. So far as I know, they had violated no law.
     Senator WELKER. That is about the best reason why you could answer it then,.is it not?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. Well, sir, if I may explain again I believe this would be getting a lot of people .into trouble, and I want to say, I have come here to speak very frankly about miyself; I have made no appeal to any legal immunities, and I simply cannot allow to rest on my conscience that I would get other people into trouble just to save myself some difficulty.
     Senator WELKER. Mr: Goldman, and your counsel, Chairman Jenner and all the members of the committee appreciate your frankness, but I think in fairness to you and your counsel,.who is a learned man in, the law, that you certainly have not stated a reason why you cannot answer the question, and under those circumstances the Chair will direct you to answer the question. If you desire, you, may confer.
     Mr. BUTLER. My clients stated his grounds, and we will rest on that position.
     Mr. MORRIS. Mr. Goldman, will you tell us the name of the leader of the Brooklyn unit, while you were in Brooklyn, of .the Communist Party?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. I cannot tell you the name for the same reason I have just stated.
     Senator WELKER. Will you repeat that reason again?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. I rest primarily, and as far as I know perhaps that is the only reason I have got, is a moral principle. I simply could not live with my conscience if I informed on other people ,who, to.the best of my knowledge, have done no harm.
     Mr. MORRIS. Mr. Goldman, to your knowledge, or do you not know that the man who was at that time the head of the Brooklyn unit of the Communist Party is today an active Communist, a member of the Communist international organization, a part of which. organization is killing United States troops in Korea today?:
     Mr. GOLDMAN.. I have no such. knowledge.:
     Mr. MORRIS. You have no such knowledge. Do you know what that man is doing without revealing his name? Do you know what he is doing today?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. I can honestly say, and the only honest statement I can make,.is that I have no knowledge of what anybody is doing so far as Communist activities are concerned, after I left the Communist Party.
     Mr. MORRIS. As I say, Mr. .Chairman, we have testimony in our record that a man who is the. head of the Communist Party unit at Brooklyn College is today an active Communist organizer, he is today

Page 735


actively engaged in assisting the Communist international organization.
     Under those circumstances, would you tell us who the leader of that particular unit was?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. :I: am sorry, sir, I have stated. my position, and I can't possibly abandon this position, which is a position of principle.
     Mr. MORRIS. Mr. Reporter, will you read the two questions now; one, who was the leader of the Columbia unit, and who was the leader of the Brooklyn unit?
     (The questions were read by the reporter as follows:)
 
     Mr. MORRIS. Mr. Goldman, will you tell us who was the head, who was the leader of the Communist unit at Columbia while you were a member of that unit?
     Mr. MORRIS. Mr: Goldman, will you tell us the name of the leader of the Brooklyn unit while you were in Brooklyn of the Communist Party?
 
     Senator WELKER. Now will you answer those again?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. I have already stated–
     Senator WELKER. I am asking you to answer then again, please, Mr. Goldman.
     Mr. GOLDMAN. My answer is I cannot in all good conscience answer those questions.
     Senator WELKER. Do you have a constitutional objection to answering that question, or those questions?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. I am not a lawyer, sir, and I do not know what my legal rights are in that.
     Senator WELKER. You have able counsel with you, and I will ask able counsel if he has a constitutional objection to your answering those questions?
     Mr. BUTLER. Well, in order to make my client's position absolutely clear to this committee, I want to point out first that. my client is standing on a moral right not to get other people into trouble in order to get himself out of trouble. He feels–
     Mr. MORRIS. That is, even though these people may be part of the Communist organization that is operating in Korea today ?
     Mr. BUTLER. May I finish?
     Mr. MORRIS. I am asking you a question in connection with it.
     Mr. BUTLER. He further thinks that this moral right is his under the first amendment of the Constitution of the United States involving freedom of speech.
     Senator WELKER. What?
     Mr. BUTLER. Involving freedom of speech and the freedom not to inform on others when there has been no violation of law.
     Senator WELKER. Is that it?
     Mr. BUTLER. That is our contention.
     Senator WELKER. The acting chairman does not recognize that as a valid objection. I want to say this to you, counselor, and to your client, Mr. Goldman, that there is no desire whatsoever on the part o this committee to get anyone in contempt of this committee; that is the farthest thing from our thoughts, but we as a congressional committee are charged with the duty of getting all the information: possible that is legally obtainable from you, and therefore again I direct you to answer that question, the two questions.
     Mr. GOLDMAN. May I say that I certainly would not care to be in contempt of this committee, and say further that I have a great

Page 736


respect for, the United States Congress, but again on moral conscience I must retain nay original objection to answering that question.
     Senator WELKER. Well, your moral-conscience objection is not well taken in the opinion of the committee, and I must inform you, sir, that much as we regret to, we will have to consider this matter as being in contempt of this subcommittee. Now if you would like to have a talk, have a conference, with your counsel, we would be very happy to have you do so. It is the Chair's opinion that you are in contempt. I hope I am wrong, but I think perhaps you had better have a little talk with your counsel.
     Let the record show now that the witness has departed from the witness stand and is conferring with counsel.
     Now after conferring with your counsel, do you desire to make a statement ?
     Mr.GOLDMAN. Yes. My statement is that with all due respect to the. Senate of the United States, I must still stand upon my principles, and I would like to add further that the principle isn't worth standing on unless there is a problem in standing upon it. The fact that I am under fire is no reason for abandoning a principle.
     Senator WELKER. What do you mean by "under fire"? You have been a very cooperative witness here; you have gone all the way with us; you have been very free with your testimony; but yet when you are asked the question as to who the leader of the group happened to be, then you hide behind, as I might say, an objection that is not valid and has no basis in law and, therefore, I will have to direct you to answer those questions, and if not, this committee has no other alternative than to seek contempt citation for you, and I assure you again, Mr. Goldman, we do not desire to do that.
     Mr. GOLDMAN. I appreciate your statement, Senator, and I hope you appreciate my position, too. I think in a matter of this kind a person must rest upon his own conscience. I could not in all conscience leave this committee room with the knowledge that I had gotten other people into trouble in order to save myself.
     Again I would like to remind the committee and the Senator that I have come to this committee with the full determination to speak freely; that I have not relied upon any legal immunities whatsoever. I have stated my position; I have no other recourse but to stand by it.
     Senator WELKER. You have spoken freely, Mr. Goldman, up to a certain point, and then you have relied upon an immunity that I never heard of before as a practicing lawyer. I do hope that you reconsider your position because of the fact that it is the desire of this committee never to get anyone in contempt or in trouble if possible.
     (Witness confers with counsel.)
     Senator WELKER. You now have conferred with your counsel. Do you now desire to make a statement?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. I have no further statement to make, sir.
     Senator WELKER.. I should advise you, Mr. Goldman, and your counsel, Mr. Butler, that one of the ways, and perhaps the best way this committee has to know that a man is no longer a member, of the Communist Party is his full disclosure of all the truth. Now you have disclosed to the world that you were a member, an active member, of the Communist Party. Yet, now at the crucial point you refuse to tell this committee or to the world the leader of that group who

Page 737


might well be engaged in espionage at this very time, taking. the lives of American boys in Korea, and I do hope that you reconsider and give us the benefit of your testimony, truthful testimony, only upon the questions propounded to you.
     Mr. GOLDMAN. I have given you the most truthful testimony which I am capable about myself. Senator WELKER. But you do not desire to mention the name of the leader of the groups as related in the two questions heretofore propounded to you?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. I am sorry, sir; yes, that is my position.
     Senator WELKER. That is upon a moral ground only?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. As a layman, this is the only ground I can argue.
     Senator WELKER. And I am mindful, counsel; I will save you the time of that new theory of yours under the first amendment of the Constitution which certainly this committee does not accept.. Mr Goldman, once again I should inform you that this committee do not accept as valid the objection as based by you or your counsel Mr. Butler.
     You may proceed, Mr. Morris.
     Mr. MORRIS. I have no more questions.
     Senator WELKER. I might ask another question even though you refuse to name the leader of the groups. Would you care to give us the names of anyone in the groups at all?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. It seems to me the same principle, the same position I have stated applies to all
     Mr. MORRIS. Do you know whether Howard Selsam was the Communist leader at Brooklyn College?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. I am sorry, sir, I cannot answer that question because it seems to me you are leading by another route at this same sort of question.
     Senator WELKER. Have you ever had any meetings with that man?
     Mr. GoLDMAN. I am sorry, I cannot answer that question.
     Mr. MORRIS. Do you realize that Mr. Selsam is still actively working in the Communist international organization right now?
     Mr. GOLDMAN. I haven't kept up with the activities of Mr. Selsam.
S     enator WELKER. You are basing your objection upon the first amendment, objection given by Counselor Butler, your objection to the moral objection that you feel that you might have in your own heart?
     (Mr. Goldman nodding.)
     Senator WELKER. Any further questions?
     Mr. MORRIS. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman, in view of the position taken by the witness. I did have other questions but in view of that, Mr. Chairman, I will desist.
     Senator WELKER. If not, the hearing will suspend.
     I want to. thank you on behalf of Chairman Jenner and the rest of the committee, Mr. Goldman, and you, Mr. Butler, for appearing here.      Mr. BUTLER. Thank you.
     (Whereupon, at 3 p. m., the subcommittee recessed subject to the call of the Chair.)

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