WEDNESDAY, APRIL 1, 1953
UNITED STATES SENATE,
SUBCOMMITTEE TO IVNESTIGATE THE ADMINISTRATION
OF THE INTERNAL SECURITY ACT AND OTHER INTERNAL
SECURITY LAWS, OF THE COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY,
Washington, D.C.
The subcommittee met, pursuant to call, at 2
p. m., in room 357, Senate
Office Building, Hon. Herman Welker presiding.
Present : Senator Welker.
Also present: Robert Morris, subcommittee
counsel; and Benjamin Mandel,
research director.
Senator WELKER. The subcommittee will come to
order.
Mr. MORRIS. Will you stand and be sworn?
Senator WELKER. Do you solemnly swear
that the testimony you are
about to give the subcommittee will be the truth, the whole truth, and
nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. GOLDMAN. So I do.
TESTIMONY OF IRVING
GOLDMAN, BROOKLYN, N. Y., ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL, WILLIAM J. BUTLER, OF
ARTHUR GARFIELD HAYS, NEW YORK, N. Y.
Senator WELKER. State your name,
residence, and occupation.
Mr. GOLDMAN. My name is Irving Goldman.
I live in Brooklyn, N.
Y., and I am a professor of anthropology.
Senator WELBER. Where?
Mr. GOLDMAN. At. Sarah Lawrence College.
Senator WELKER. Very well, counsel, you
may proceed.
Mr. MORRIS. Where do you reside in
Brooklyn .
Mr. GoLDMAN. I beg your pardon?
Mr. BUTLER. I would. like to note an
objection on the record that
I think I should be allowed to sit next to the witness.
Senator WELKER. Your objection may be noted on the record, and
the acting chairman will inform you that you will be seated here as
other attorneys have been seated, and at any time when you have a valid
reason to confer with your client, we will be most happy to permit you
to do so.
Mr. MORRIS. What is your address in
Brooklyn?
Mr. GOLDMAN. 33 Remsen Street, Brooklyn.
Mr. MORRIS. What is your
present occupation, Mr. Goldman?
Mr. GOLDMAN. I am professor of
anthropology at Sarah Lawrence
College.
Mr. MORRIS. From what university have
you obtained your degree?
Page 721
Mr. GOLDMAN. I have a bachelor of
science degree from
Brooklyn.College.
Mr. MORRIS. When did you obtain this B.
S. from Brooklyn College?
Mr. GOLDMAN. 1933.
Mr. MORRIS. What other degrees do you
hold?
Mr. GOLDMAN. A Ph D.
Mr. MORRIS. What. university did you
obtain your Ph. D. at?
Mr. GOLDMAN. Columbia.
Mr. MORRIS. In what year?
Mr. GOLDMAN. 1941.
Mr. MORRIS. After 1933 when you obtained
your B. S. from Brooklyn
College, how did you become employed?
Mr. GOLDMAN. After 1933?
Mr. MORRIS. Yes .
Mr. GOLDMAN. I went to graduate school
and was a graduate student
taking courses from 1933 until 1935.
Mr: MORRIS. Where were you taking those
courses?
Mr. GOLDMAN. At Columbia University.
Mr. MORRIS. What courses were they?
Mr. GOLDMAN. Well, the general courses
leading to a degree in
anthropology, a variety of courses in the field of anthropology and the
field of psychology.
Mr. MORRIS. You were there from 1933 to
1935?
Mr. GOLDMAN. Taking courses, sir.
Mr. MORRIS. What did you do after 1935,
Mr. Goldman?
Mr. GOLDMAN. In 1935 I had a research
grant from Columbia
University, and I did field work among Indians in British Columbia.
Mr. MORRIS. How long did you do that?
Mr. GOLDMAN. Until some time in 1936.
Mr. MORRIS. So from the year 1935 to
1936 you were in British
Columbia?
Mr. GOLDMAN. The better part of that
year.
Senator WELKER. Counsel, may we suspend
at this time?
May we have the attorney's name and
address for the record,
please?
Mr. BUTLER. Arthur Garfield Hays, 120
Broadway, New York, N. Y., by
William J. Butler of counsel.
Mr. MORRIS. Mr. Goldman, what was your next
occupation, your next
assignment?
Mr. GOLDMAN. Between 1936 and 1937 I was
appointed assistant in
anthropology at Columbia University.
Mr. MORRIS. What did you do thereafter, after
1937?
Mr. GOLDMAN. Well, thereafter I was part
assistant to Prof. Franz,
Boas, who was chairman of the anthropology department of Columbia
University, and some time in 1937 I taught a number of classes in the
university extension of Columbia University.
Mr. MORRIS. How long did you have that
assignment?
Mr. GOLDMAN. The teaching?
Mr. MORRIS. The teaching assignment.
Mr. GOLDMAN. One semester.
Mr. MORRIS. One semester?
Mr. GOLDMAN. That is right.
Mr. MORRIS. That took you. up then to
January1938?
Mr. GOLDMAN. As far as I can recall.
Page 722
Mr. GOLDMAN. I don't think so. He's not an
anthropologist.
Mr. MORRIS. I see. As long as you were
associated with Boas, was
Finkelstein an assistant of any kind?
Mr. GOLDMAN. As an assistant? Not to my
knowledge.
Mr. MORRIS. Will you tell us what you did
after January 1938?
Mr. GOLDMAN. Well, between January 1938 and
March 1939 I might say I
continued to work for Professor Boas.
Mr. MORRIS. What else did you do during that
period?
Mr. GOLDMAN. I was doing some of my own
research.
Mr. MORRIS. Was that independent research?
Mr. GOLDMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. MORRIS. Did you operate under a grant?
Mr. GOLDMAN. No; I was operating—I don't
recall that I was operating
under a grant. I was being paid from funds of Professor Boas.
Mr. MORRIS. Private, Professor Boas' own
funds?
Mr. GOLDMAN. No, these were the operating
funds of the anthropology
department.
Mr. MORRIS. What did you do then after March
1939?
Mr. GOLDMAN. I went to South America.
Mr. MORRIS. Under what auspices?
Mr. GoLDMAN. Under a research grant from
Columbia University.
Mr. MORRIS. Where did you go in South America?
Mr. GOLDMAN. I went to Colombia.
Mr. MORRIS. Colombia, South America?
Mr. GOLDMAN. Correct.
Mr. MORRIS. How long did you stay there?
Mr. GOLDMAN. Until about August 1940.
Mr. MORRIS. Then did you return to Columbia?
Mr. GOLMAN. Not in any official capacity at
all.
Mr. MORRIS. What did you do?
Mr. GOLDMAN. Well, I just visited the library
and visited the
department. I no longer had any official or paid connection with the
university.
Mr. MORRIS. What was your source of income
during that period, Mr.
Goldman?
Page 723
Mr. MORRIS. What did you do after that, Mr.
Goldman?
Mr. GOLDMAN. I guess I was—well, I was working
on anthropological
problems working as an assistant to Prof. Franz Boas.
Mr. MORRIS. How many assistants did Franz Boas
have at that time?
Mr. GOLDMAN. There were two kinds of
assistants; there was the
departmental assistant, and there was the direct assistant to Professor
Boas. I served 1 year as departmental assistant, and after that I was
an assistant assigned to Professor Boas, helping him in research on
Indians of British Columbia.
Mr. MORRIS. I see. Who were the other
assistants to Mr. Boas at that
time?
Mr. GOLDMAN. Well, he had a variety of people
working with him in and
out. I can't recall offhand who they all were. There was a fellow
working with him on statistical problems.
Mr. MORRIS. Who was he?
Mr. GOLDMAN. Jacobs, or something, I think his
name was.
Mr. MORRIS.. Was Mr. Moses Finkelstein working
with Mr. Boas at that
time?
Mr. GOLDMAN. I was; still, living off the
proceeds of the research
grant.
Mr. MORRIS. That brought us up to August 1940
. How did you employ
yourself after that, Mr. Goldman?
Mr. GOLDMAN. I got a job teaching at Brooklyn
College in September
1940.
Mr. MORRIS. How did you obtain that employment
in Brooklyn College?
Mr. GOLDMAN. By making an application to the .
president of the
college.
Mr. MORRIS. Who was the president of the
college in 1940?
Mr GOLDMAN. Dr. Harry Gideonse, I believe.
Mr. MORRIS. Did you work in anthropology at
Brooklyn College?
Mr. GOLDMAN. At Brooklyn I taught
anthropology.
Mr. MORRIS. Had you known prior to 1940 any
members of the anthropology
department in Brooklyn College?
Mr. GoLDMAN. Prior to 1940, any members of the
anthropology
department; yes.
Mr. MORRIS. Whom did you know ? Whom were you
acquainted. with at that
time?
Mr. GOLDMAN. Dr. May Edel.
Mr. MORRIS. Is. that a woman's name, M-a-y?
Mr. GOLDMAN. Yes.
Mr. MORRIS. Is she related to Abraham Edel?
Mr. GOLDMAN. She is his wife.
Mr. MORRIS. Who else?
Mr. GoLDMAN. Dr. Alexander Lesser.
Mr. MORRIS. Was he at Brooklyn College at that
time?
Mr. GOLDMAN. To the best of my recollection I
think so.
Mr. MORRIS. Is it your testimony that they.
are the two people in the
department of anthropology in. Brooklyn College whom you knew?
Mr. GOLDMAN. As far as I can recollect. I have
some haziness, I must
say, as to whether, Dr. Lesser was employed just at that time in
Brooklyn College. I could check.
Mr. MORRIS. How long did you stay at Brooklyn.
College?
Mr. GOLDMAN. Until. March 1942.
Mr. MORRIS. March 1942. What did you do then?
Mr. GOLDMAN. I was employed by the United
States Government.
Mr. MORRIS. You went to work with the United
States Government?
Mr.GOLDMAN. That is correct.
Mr. MORRIS. What department of the United
States Government?
Mr. GOLDMAN. The Coordinator of Inter-American
Affairs.
Mr. MORRIS. The Coordinator of Inter-American
Affairs?
Mr. GOLDMAN. Yes.
Mr. MORRIS. Would you describe the nature of
that
assignment?
Mr. GOLDMAN. I was assigned as an anlyst, and
I was classified at one
time as a publicist, but essentially I was a research analyst.
Mr. MORRIS. I see. Will you tell us the
circumstances. leading to your
obtaining that employment?
Mr. GOLDMAN. Yes. Prior to sometime around
January or February of 1942,
I wanted a job with the United States Government,, and I had traveled
around a lot of offices. Among the offices I visited was the Office of
the Coordinator of Inter-American Affairs. There
Page 724
was an anthropologist
employed in the Division of Reports at the Coordinator of
Inter-American Affairs whom I had met because he done field work in
Colombia as well, and I wrote a letter to him asking him if there was
an opening in his office?
I was asked to come up for an interview, and subsequently I was
employed
Mr. MORRIS.Who was. that anthropologist that
you refer to?
Mr. GOLDMAN. Dr. Willard Park.
Mr. MORRIS. Had you known Dr. Willard Park
prior to that time?
Mr.
GOLDMAN. I had met him at anthropological meetings, and I had.had a
session with him discussing research possibilities in South America.
Mr. MORRIS. How long did you remain with the
Coordinator of
Inter-American Affairs?
Mr. GOLDMAN. To the best of my knowledge until
the end of March 1943,
there or thereabouts.
Mr. MORRIS. What was the general nature of
your work with that
department?
Mr. GOLDMAN. I did a variety, of reports on
subjects upon assignment. I
did a certain amount of analysis of political events in Latin America,
I wrote.reports dealing with certain economic problems in Latin
America, and I wrote reports which related rather more or less directly
to my experience in Latin America as an anthropologist.
Mr. MORRIS. All right, what did you do after
1943 at the end of your
assignment which you have described?
Mr. GOLDMAN. I enlisted in the United States
Army.
Mr. MORRIS. ,You enlisted in the United States
Army?
Mr. GOLDMAN. Correct.
Mr. MORRIS. How:long did you stay in the
United States Army?
Mr. GOLDMAN. Until, I believe, sometime in
1945, I believe. May I
consult Mr. Butler?
Mr., MORRIS. You may.
Mr. GOLDMAN (after conferring with counsel).
According to my records I
was inducted on the 23d of March 1943, and I think I was released from
the Army for. assignment to the State Department sometime in 1945.
Mr. MORRIS. Would you tell us the
circumstances of your being released
from the Army to work with the State Department?
Mr. GOLDMAN. In the Army I had been assigned
to the Office of Strategic
Services, and as a matter of general policy I and others were
transferred from the OSS into the State Department.
Mr. MORRis. I see. What did you do with the
OSS?
Mr. GOLDMAN. In the
OSS I continued working on Latin-American affairs; I was a political
analyst. Part of the time I was a section chief dealing with a
particular area in Latin America.
Mr. MORRIS. What was the particular area?
Mr. GOLDMAN. It shifted around. Mostly I dealt
with the River Plate
countries, Argentina, Uruguay, Bolivia, Paraguay.
Mr. MORRIS, When did you first meet–
Mr.GoLDMAN. I might add, too, I also dealt
with Brazil.
Mr. MORRIS. I see. I might say for the record,
Mr. Goldman, that we
have had testimony before this committee that one, Maurice Halperin was
during the war years a member of a Soviet espionage ring
Page 725
in Washington.
There was the testimony of Miss Elizabeth Bentley concerning Halperin.
We had additional testimony that Maurice Halperin was a representative
of the Communist Party in Texas and Oklahoma to Mexico.
Mr. Halperin was called in as a witness from
Boston last week and was
asked about these allegations in connection with whether or not he was
a member of the Soviet espionage ring in Washington which had operated
during the war. He refused to say whether he was a Communist during
that time; that is, during the war, whether he had met with Elizabeth
Bentley, the witness; whether he had paid Communist Party dues to Miss
Bentley; whether or not he had transmitted information to Miss Bentley,
and generally invoked the fifth amendment, his rights under the fifth
amendment on all questions; relating to Communist membership at that
time.
Mr. Goldman, I would like to ask you when you
first met Maurice
Halperin.
Mr. GOLDMAN. To the best of my knowledge, I
first met Mr. Halperin some
time in 1943.
Mr. MORRIS. What were the circumstances?
Mr. GOLDMAN. During the period of my
employment at the Coordinator of
Inter-American Affairs.
Mr. MORRIS. Did he have a position with the
Coordinator of
Inter-American Affairs?
Mr. GOLDMAN. He did not.
Mr. MORRIS. What was he doing at the time?
Mr. GOLDMAN. He had a position with the OSS,
which was then called by
another set of alphabet letters that I don't recall. It might have been
.Office of—I am sorry, I don't recall what it was called then. It then
became the OSS, Coordinator of Information.
Mr. MORRIS. Coordinator of Information?
Mr. GOLDMAN. That is right.
Mr. MORRIS. Is it your testimony that you met
him in 1943 for the first
time?
Mr. GOLDMAN. It is my testimony that I met him
some time during my
employment with the Coordinator of Inter-American Affairs.
Mr. MORRIS. What have been your associations
with Maurice Halperin
since that time?
Mr. GOLDMAN. During the period of my 1-year
employment with the CIAA I
believe I met him no more than about 2 times, 1 on a direct matter of
business, and another time I think there was some sort of luncheon of
people working in Inter-American Affairs. I did not to the best. of my
knowledge, did not see, Mr. Halperin again, until I was assigned to his
office in the OSS as a soldier.
Mr. MORRIS. Who assigned you to that position?
We would like all the
circumstances relating to your being assigned. What was your rank in
the Army at that time, Mr. Goldman?
Mr. GOLDMAN. At that time I was a corporal.
Mr. MORRIS. Give us all the circumstances
leading up to your being a
corporal in the United States Army being assigned to OSS. I mean,, what
efforts were made on your part to obtain that position, and what
efforts were made on the part of others to your knowledge to put you in
this position?
Mr. GOLDMAN. At some time, to the best of my
recollection, while I was
at Fort Riley. No, I am sorry, while I was in the ASTP,
Page 726
Army
specialized training program, at the University of Nebraska where I had
been sent to receive training in area work in the Spanish-Latin
American area work. At that time I received a letter from Mr. Halperin
stating, asking, whether I would be interested in being transferred to
his organization in order to continue with Latin-American work.
I wrote back saying yes, I might be
interested.
Mr. MORRIS. Who wrote this letter to you, Mr.
Goldman?
Mr. GOLDMAN. Yes.
Mr. MORRIS. Who wrote the letter?
Mr. GOLDMAN. Mr. Halperin.
Senator WELKER. How long had you known
Mr. Halperin at that time?
Mr. GOLDMAN. As I have already stated.
Senator WELKER. I want it again, please.
Mr. Goldman. I had met him only several times
during the period I was employed with the Coordinator of Inter-American
Affairs.
Mr. MORRIS. Did. he have an opportunity
to observe your work?
Mr. GOLDMAN. I believe he had an
opportunity to be aware of my work because of this reason, that when I
was working at the Coordinator of Inter-American Affairs, the parallel
agency was the office in which Mr. Halperin worked in the OSS, and they
were sort of in a way, sort of rival agencies. I imagine our
reports went in normal course of business to them, and some of their
reports went in the normal course of business to our office, and I
assume he must have had knowledge of my work.
Senator WELKER. Is that how he got the
information that you were in the Army?
Mr. GOLDMAN. He was informed, I guess,
by my previous employer with whom I kept up a little correspondence,
sending him a card every now and then.
Senator WELKER. Again, your previous
employer?
Mr. GOLDMAN. Was Mr. Robert Miller, who
was Chief of the Division of Reports.
Senator WELKER. Did you ever have any
correspondence with Halperin at all, yourself, prior to being invited
to join?
Mr. Goldman. No, sir.
Mr. MORRIS. When did you first learn
that Mr. Halperin had been identified in sworn testimony as a member of
an espionage ring during this period?
Mr. GOLDMAN. I read it in the newspapers
at the time.
Mr. MORRIS. That is in1948?
Mr. GOLDMAN. Whenever it was that Miss
Benley gave her testimony.
Mr. MORRIS. Miss Bentley testified, Mr.
Goldman, I believe in 1948.
Mr. GOLDMAN. I guess it must have been
at that time.
Mr. MORRIS. When did you first hear that
Robert T. Miller had been identified as a member of the espionage ring
through sworn testimony?
Mr. Goldman. I am not sure that I recall
that he was identified with an espionage ring.
Mr. MORRIS. What do you recall about
Robert T. Miller? He was mentioned by Miss Bentley, was he not,
during this testimony?
Mr. GoLDMAN. I do recall that he was in
some kind of hot water. It must have been at that period.
Page 727
Mr. MORRIS. You say he was your previous
employer prior to the time
that you left the Coordinator of Inter-American Affairs Office to go
into the Army?
Mr. GOLDMAN. That is correct.
Mr. MORRIS. Was it Miller who recommended you
to Halperin?
Mr. GOLDMAN. I daresay it was.
Mr. MORRIS. Mr. Goldman, will you. tell us
what your next assignment
was?
Mr. GOLDMAN. After what?
Mr. MORRIS. After your OSS assignment?
Mr. GOLDMAN. In the State Department.
Mr. MORRIS. What did you do in the State
Department?
Mr. GOLDMAN. My first assignment was Acting
Chief of the Division
of—well, the Latin American Division in the Office of Intelligence and
Research. After that a permanent chief was installed, and I became a
section chief in that office.
Mr. MORRIS. Who were your superiors at that
time?
Mr. GoLDMAN. Dr. Hussey, H-u-s-s-e-y. I might
say there was an interim
period, too, when my superior was Dr. Kendall, K-e-n-d-a-1-1.
Mr. MORRlS. How long did you remain in the
State Department?
Mr. GOLDMAN. Until June 23, 1947.
Mr. MORRIS. Will you give us the circumstances
of your leaving the
State Department at that time?
Mr. GOLDMAN. Yes. I was dismissed as a
security risk.
Mr. MORRIS. Were you dismissed as a security
risk under the so called
MeCarran rider of the appropriation act, Appropriations Committee Act?
Mr. GOLDMAN. You have me there.
Mr. MORRIS. Will you tell us the circumstances
of your being dismissed
as a security risk?
Mr. GOLDMAN. I received my notice that I was
being dismissed in the
interests of the United States Government on June 23, 1947.
Mr. MORRIS. What did you do after that time?
Mr. GOLDMAN. May I add to that that thereafter
this dismissal was
changed to resignation without prejudice?
Mr. MORRIS. Will you tell us the circumstances
surrounding the change
from your dismissal as a security risk to a resignation?
Mr. GOLDMAM. Yes. I applied to counsel and
asked for a statement of
charges, I guess, asked for a hearing, and none of that was ever
granted, and after some time the State Department issued, sent me; a
letter notifying me that my dismissal had been changed to resignation
without prejudice.
Mr. MORRIS. Who in the State Department did
you confer with at that
time in effecting this change?
Mr. GoLDMAN. I conferred with no one.
Mr. MORRIS. You had no conversations with
officials in the State
Department surrounding the efforts of having your dismissal changed to
a resignation?
Mr. GOLDMAN. I had one conversation with Mr.
Arch Jean. That was just a
matter within days after the dismissal notice that I asked him could he
clarify. the dismissal notice. He said "No," and I believe: that was
the last connection I had with any State Departmen official.
Page 728
Senator WELKER. Did you know of anyone in your
behalf who conferred
with anyone in the State Department to change your status?
Mr. GOLDMAN. All I can say on that is that I
had counsel who were
seeking—not to change the status but were seeking to find out the
causes or get a statement of charges for the dismissal.
Mr. MORRIS. Who was the counsel?
Mr. GOLDMAN. My counsel was the firm of
Thurman Arnold, Porter &
Fortas.
Senator WELKER. And they merely conferred
without presenting any
evidence, and as a result your status was changed, is that correct? You
were permitted to resign without prejudice?
Mr. GOLDMAN. So I understand, sir.
Senator WELKER. Sir?
Mr. GOLDMAN. So I understand. I don't know, I
can't say, whether they
conferred. I have no way of knowing what were the actual circumstances
of the change of that order.
Mr. MORRIS. What did you do subsequent to your
leaving the State
Department in 1947?
Mr. GOLDMAN. I made application for a position
at Sarah Lawrence
Cdllege
Mr. MORRIS. With whom did you make
application?
Mr. GOLDMAN. With the president of the
college.
Mr. MORRIS. Did you deal with him directly or
through somebody in the
anthropology department?
Mr. GOLDMAN. Well, I can tell you the
circumstances. I had called first
Prof. Ruth Benedict in the anthropology department. Mr.
Mr. MORRIS. Will
you identify Ruth Benedict for us?
Mr. GOLDMAN. Ruth Benedict was chairman of the
department of
anthropology at Columbia. University.
Mr. MORRIS. Was she the person who with Gene
Weltfish wrote a book
called the Races of Mankind?
Mr. GOLDMAN. Yes.
Mr. MORRIS. Had you known her prior to that
time?
Mr. GOLDMAN. Known whom?
Mr. MORRIS. Ruth Benedict.
Mr. GOLDMAN. Yes; she was my teacher at
Columbia.
Mr. MORRIS. Had you known Gene Weltfish?
Mr. GOLDMAN. Yes.
Mr. MORRIS. Would you tell us further how you
obtained your positioni
in the anthropology department at Sarah Lawrence College?
Mr. GOLDMAN. Professor Benedict inquired
around about what jobs were
available; I told her I was in need of a job. She called me to say that
they were looking for an anthropologist at Sarah Lawrence College, and
would I apply, which I did. I was asked to come down for an interview,
and I was interviewed by the president of the college and the members
of the advisory committee.
Mr. MORRIS. Will you tell us who the president
of the college was and
who the members of the advisory committee were?
Mr. GOLDMAN. The president of the college was
Harold Taylor.
Mr.. MORRIS. Who were the members of the
advisory committee?
Mr. GOLDMAN. I can't recall all the names.:
There was, I believe, Mrs.
McMaster. I believe the dean of the college, Dean Raushenbush, was
present, and perhaps Dr. Helen Lynd; I am not sure.
Page 729
Mr. MORRIS. Since that time you have been on
the faculty of Sarah
Lawrence College?
Mr. GOLDMAN. That is correct.
Mr. MORRIS. And you are now a professor of
anthropology at Sarah
Lawrence?
Mr. GOLDMAN. That is so.
Mr. MORRIS. How many students do you have?
Mr. GOLDMAN. Well, I have 16 students in one
class and 14 in another, a
total of 30 students.
Mr. MORRIS. That is the total of the students
you are teaching at this
time?
Mr. GOLDMAN. That is correct.
Mr. MORRIS. Are you teaching anywhere else?
Mr. GOLDMAN. No, sir.
Mr. MORRIS. Have you taught any place else
since 1947?
Mr. GOLDMAN. Yes.
Mr. MORRIS. Where have you taught?
Mr. GOLDMAN. At New York University.
Mr. MORRIS. What. courses did you give there?
Mr. GOLDMAN. Cultural anthropology in the
summer session, and I should
explain perhaps for the record that when I say "New York University"
this is a joint summer session conducted by Sarah Lawrence College and
New York University, and that the salaries of the faculty were paid by
New York University, and other expenses were taken care of by the
college. It was a joint operation.
Mr. MORRIS. All right. Now, Mr. Goldman, while
you were an assistant
anthropologist at Columbia University, 1936-37, were you a member of
the Communist Party?
Mr. GOLDMAN. Yes; I was.
Mr. MORRIS. Were you assigned to a unit of the
Communist Party at
Columbia at that time?
Mr. GOLDMAN. Yes; I was.
Mr. MORRIS. What was the unit called?
Mr. GOLDMAN. I don't think it had a name.
Mr. MORRIS. How many members were there in the
unit?
Mr. GOLDMAN. Oh, about around a dozen or so or
less.
Mr. MORRIS. Were you a member of the Communist
Party while you were an
assistant to Professor Boas at Columbia University?
Mr. GOLDMAN. We might clarify that question by
saying that I was a
member of the Communist Party from sometime in 1936, perhaps late in
1936, until 1942.
Mr. MORRIS. Well, I would like to know what
unit you were assigned to
all during that period. You say you were in the Columbia unit in the
period 1936 to 1937. Now how long did you stay in that unit?
Mr. GOLDMAN. Until March 1939.
Mr. MORRiS. March 1939. Were you transferred
at that time?
Mr. GOLDMAN. No. I went to South America; I
was not transferred.
Mr. MORRIS. What did you do about your
Communist Party membership when
you went to South America?
Mr. GOLDMAN. Nothing.
Mr. MORRIS. You mean you just retained your
membership in that unit,
but you were on leave, is that it?
Mr. GOLDMAN. I guess so.
Page 730
Mr. MORRIS. Did you meet with any leaders of
the Communist Party while
you were in South America?
Mr .GOLDMAN. Yes, I did on one occasion out of
curiosity. I visited the
headquarters of the Communist Party of Colombia just to look around.
Mr. MORRIS. I see. When did you return from
South America?
Mr. GOLDMAN. I think it was in August 1940.
Mr. MORRIS. Did you return to the Columbia
unit of the Communist Party
at that time?
Mr. GOLDMAN. Well, I had no connection with
Columbia. any more. I don't
know. I don't think I did return to that unit.
Mr. MORRIS. Were your assigned to another unit
of the Communist Party
at that time?
Mr. GOLDMAN. I think I was sort of up in the
air at that time.
Mr. MORRIS. Did you join the Brooklyn College
unit of the Communist
party?
Mr. GOLDMAN. Yes; I did.
Mr. MORRIS. How many members were there in the
Brooklyn College unit of the Communist Party?
Mr. GOLDMAN. Oh, about the same number.
Mr. MORRIS. About 12?
Mr. GOLDMAN.In the unit I was in, yes.
Mr. MORRIS. How many such units were there at
Brooklyn College?
Mr. GOLDMAN. Well, so far as I know I was in
the evening session, and
that was the unit for the evening session, and there was the day
session. There must have been a unit for the day session.
Mr. MORRIS. Have you not sat in on meetings of
the two units where the
day session and the evening session people met?
Mr. GOLDMAN. I believe on one occasion I did.
Mr. MORRIS. Could you estimate from that one
occasion how many people
from the day session sat in on that evening session meeting, the joint
meeting?
Mr. GOLDMAN. At that particular one as I
recall there must have been
about 6 or 7.
Mr. MORRIS. Is it your testimony that you left
the Communist Party in
1942?
Mr. GOLDMAN. So it is.
Senator WELKER. Counsel, may I have a question
there, please? How often
did the party unit meet at Brooklyn College?
Mr. GOLDMAN. Once a week.
Senator WELKER. You attended quite regularly?
Mr. GOLDMAN. More or less, yes, sir.
Senator WELKER., And about the same number of
members, comrades, met
each night; is that correct?
Mr. GOLDMAN. Well, it was sort of an in or out
situation. People who
were leaving it, it varied around that number, I guess.
Mr. MORRIS. Now when you left the Brooklyn
College unit of the
Communist Party, you then worked, subsequent to that you worked, under
Maurice Halperin, did you not?
Mr. GOLDMAN. No.
Mr. MORRIS. Subsequent to that you worked
under Maurice Halperin
Mr. GOLDMAN. I did not work under Maurice
Halperin until I was assigned
to the OSS.
Page 731
Mr. MORRIS. That is what I mean, at some time
subsequent?
Mr. GOLDMAN. Yes.
Mr. MORRIS. Will you tell us about your
association with Halperin?
Mr. GOLDMAN. Part of the time I was a section
chief in his office and I
took part in regular office conferences.
Mr. MORRIS. Has your association with Mr.
Maurice Halperin extended
down to date?
Mr. GOLDMAN. The last time I saw Maurice
Halperin was sometime before
Thanksgiving of last year.
Mr. MORRIS. Under what circumstances did you
see him?
Mt. GOLDMAN. He was attending, he told me,
some scholarly meeting in
New York. He had come to New York, and he called me, and he came to our
house.
Mr. MORRIS. When did you last see Robert T.
Miller?
Mr. GOLDMAN. Well, I dropped by Robert T.
Miller's house some time last
year.
Mr. MORRIS. Now that was at that time
subsequent to the time that Mr.
Miller was identified by Miss Bentley as a wartime Communist?
Mr. GOLDMAN. That is correct.
Mr. MORRIS. When did you last see May Edel?
Mr. GOLDMAN. Oh, I talked to her on the
telephone a couple of weeks
ago. I haven't seen her in several months.
Mr. MORRIS. To your knowledge has May Edel
been a teacher at the
Jefferson School for Social Science?
Mr. GOLDMAN. No, I never heard of that.
Mr. MORRIS. When have you last seen Dr. Gene
Weltfish?
Mr. GOLDMAN. Well, I haven't seen her in quite
a while. I haven’t seen
Dr. Weltfish in quite a while. I ran into her on the campus of Columbia
when I was going to the library, maybe sometime last year, I don't–
Mr. MORRIS. What was the nature of your
conversation with her at that
time?
Mr. GOLDMAN. Sort of hello and goodby.
Mr. MORRIS. What was the nature of your
conversation with May Edel?
Mr. GOLDMAN. Well, she had written a book on
anthropology. I called her
up to tell her I had seen the book, thought it was a nice job and
wished her well with it.
Mr. MORRIS. Mr. Mandel, do we have anything in
the records to show that
May Edel was in fact a teacher at the Jefferson School?
Mr. MANDEL. The. fall term catalog, 1944, of
the Jefferson School of
Social Science shows May Edel as an instructor and gives her collegiate
record.
Mr. MORRIS. Will you give the collegiate
record of May Edel.
Mr. GOLDMAN. What was that year?
Mr. MORRIS. 1944. That, is the one Mr. Mandel
has here.
Mr. GOLDMAN. I would like you to recall that
in 1944 I was not in New
York.
Mr. MORRIS. That is true, but there may be
other editions. Mr: Mandel
has the edition of 1944, and during that period she was listed as a
teacher at the Jefferson School. As you know, the Jefferson School is
one of the Communist training schools.
Page 732
Mr. BUTLER. I would like to point out on the
record that she wasn't
necessarily an instructor. She could be a guest lecturer at one time at
the school.
Mr. MORRIS. Mr. Chairman, the book will speak
for itself, and if
necessary we can have Miss May Edel testify.
Is she the wife of Abraham Edel?
Mr. GOLDMAN. That is right.
Mr. MORRIS. Do you know to your knowledge
whether Mr. Abraham Edel was
a teacher at that same school?
Mr. GOLDMAN. What school?
Mr. MORRIS. At the Jefferson School.
Mr. GOLDMAN. No.
Mr. MORRIS. Mr. Chairman, Abraham Edel, who is
now on the faculty of
City College, I believe?
Mr. GOLDMAN. Yes.
Mr. MORRIS. Has acknowledged in executive
session
testimony that he did teach at the Jefferson School.
Mt. GOLDMAN. He never told me.
Mr. MORRIS. It speaks for itself.
Mr. GoLDMAN. Sure.
Mr. MORRIS. Do you know a man named Woodrow
Wilson Borah?
Mr. GOLDMAN. Yes.
Mr. MORRIS. Was he dismissed from the State
Department under the same
circumstances as you originally?
Mr. GOLDMAN. Yes.
Mr. MORRIS. When had you last seen Mr. Woodrow
Wilson Borah?
Mr. GOLDMAN. Gentlemen, that was many, many
years ago, I imagine some
time—I don't think I saw him after 1948. I won't swear to the exact
date except that many years have passed since I have seen him.
Mr. MORRIS. What was that occasion?
Mr. GOLDMAN. The occasion of my last seeing
him?
Mr. MORRIS. Yes.
Mr. GOLDMAN. We had dinner together.
Senator WELKER. Where?
Mr. GOLDMAN. Where?
Senator WELKER. Yes.
Mr. GOLDMAN. In a little Chinese restaurant in
Brooklyn.
Senator WELKER. Is that the only time your
have seen him, Mr. Goldman?
Mr: GOLDMAN. The only time I have seen him
since when?
Mr. BUTLER. The last time?
Mr. GOLDMAN. Yes; the last time. He left for
California, and since he
went to California I have not seen him.
Mr. MORRIS. Mr. Goldman, I have here an
interim report on hearings
regarding Communist espionage published by the Committee on Un-American
Activities in the House of Representatives, 1948, and one paragraph
reads as follows:
Miss Bentley further testified that there were
certain individuals
employed in the Government who cooperated in obtaining information from
the files of the Government for the use of Russian agents but who were
not actually attached & to either the Silvermaster or Perlo groups.
These individuals as named by Miss Bentley and the governmental agency
with which they were employed during the period concerned in the
testimony are as follows:
Page 733
One, Michael Greenberg, Board of Economic
Warfare; Foreign Economic
Administration; specialist on China.
Did you ever meet with Michael Greenberg ?
Mr. GOLDMAN. To the best of my knowledge, no.
Mr. MORRIS. Joseph Gregg, Coordinator of
Inter-American Affairs
assistant in Research Division. Did you ever meet with Joseph Gregg?
Mr. GOLDMAN. Yes.
Mr. ,MORRIS. Did you know him well?
Mr. GOLDMAN. I wouldn't say well.
Mr. MORRIS. Did you ever meet Miss Elizabeth
Bentley?
Mr. GOLDMAN. No.
Mr. MORRIS. J. Julius Joseph from the Office
of Strategic Services,
Japanese Division?
Mr. GOLDMAN. The name doesn't ring a bell at
all.
Mr. MORRIS. Duncan Chaplin Lee, Office of
Strategic Services, legal
adviser to Gen. Donovan?
Mr. GOLDMAN. I don't believe I ever met that
gentleman.
Mr. MORRIS. Next is Willard Z. Park,
coordinator of Inter-American Mr.
Affairs?
Mr. GOLDMAN. That is correct.
Mr. MORRIS. Pardon?
Mr. GOLDMAN. Yes; I told you I had met him.
Mr. MORRIS. Will you tell us the extent of
your association with Mr.
Park?
Mr. GOLDMAN. As I have already indicated, I
had met Mr. Park first as
an anthropologist at anthropological meetings, and I had discussed with
him problems of doing anthropological research in Colombia, and then I
met him when I was employed at the Coordinator of Inter-American
Affairs.
Mr. MORRIS. Mr. Bernard Redmont?
Mr. GOLDMAN. I know the name, and have seen
Mr. Redmont. I cannot say
that we are acquainted, sir.
Mr. MORRIS. The last name on the list is Helen
Tenney, Office of
Strategic Services?
Mr. GOLDMAN. I am pretty certain I have never
met her.
Mr. MORRIS. Have you discussed your work,
Government work, with any of
the people on this list? Some of them you necessarily have; have you
not?
Mr. GOLDMAN, The only people on this list with
whom I discussed my
Government work were the people with whom I was employed.
Mr. MORRIS.. Is it your testimony that during
this period of time you
were not a member of the Communist Party?
Mr. GOLDMAN. That is my testimony.
Mr. MORRIS. Is it your testimony that you were
not during this period
working with an espionage-ring in Washington?
Mr. GOLDMAN. That is certainly my testimony.
Senator WELKER. Pardon me, counselor:
Counselor Butler and Mr. Goldman, would you
have any objection to your
client being photographed?
Mr.BUTLER. Yes; we would rather not.
Senator. WELKER. Very well, your objection
will be honored.
Mr. MORRIS. Mr. Goldman, will you tell us who
was the head, who was the
leader, of the Communist unit at Columbia while you were a member of
that unit?
Page 734
Mr. GOLDMAN. I am sorry; as I told you and the
committee in executive
session. I cannot as a matter of principle reveal those names.
Senator WELKER. Now may I have the question
and the answer, please?
(The last question and answer were read by the
reporter.)
Mr. MORRIS.
What is the principle that you mentioned then?
Mr: GOLDMAN. The principle, I think, is a
simple one which is that I
cannot inform on others to get others into trouble; particularly since
I have no knowledge that any of these individuals had ever committed
any offense against the security of the United States. So far as I
know, they had violated no law.
Senator WELKER. That is about the best reason
why you could answer it
then,.is it not?
Mr. GOLDMAN. Well, sir, if I may explain again
I believe this would be
getting a lot of people .into trouble, and I want to say, I have come
here to speak very frankly about miyself; I have made no appeal to any
legal immunities, and I simply cannot allow to rest on my conscience
that I would get other people into trouble just to save myself some
difficulty.
Senator WELKER. Mr: Goldman, and your counsel,
Chairman Jenner and all
the members of the committee appreciate your frankness, but I think in
fairness to you and your counsel,.who is a learned man in, the law,
that you certainly have not stated a reason why you cannot answer the
question, and under those circumstances the Chair will direct you to
answer the question. If you desire, you, may confer.
Mr. BUTLER. My clients stated his grounds, and
we will rest on that
position.
Mr. MORRIS. Mr. Goldman, will you tell us the
name of the leader of the
Brooklyn unit, while you were in Brooklyn, of .the Communist Party?
Mr. GOLDMAN. I cannot tell you the name for
the same reason I have just
stated.
Senator WELKER. Will you repeat that reason
again?
Mr. GOLDMAN. I rest primarily, and as far as I
know perhaps that is the
only reason I have got, is a moral principle. I simply could not live
with my conscience if I informed on other people ,who, to.the best of
my knowledge, have done no harm.
Mr. MORRIS. Mr. Goldman, to your knowledge, or
do you not know that the
man who was at that time the head of the Brooklyn unit of the Communist
Party is today an active Communist, a member of the Communist
international organization, a part of which. organization is killing
United States troops in Korea today?:
Mr. GOLDMAN.. I have no such. knowledge.:
Mr. MORRIS. You have no such knowledge. Do you
know what that man is
doing without revealing his name? Do you know what he is doing today?
Mr. GOLDMAN. I can honestly say, and the only
honest statement I can
make,.is that I have no knowledge of what anybody is doing so far as
Communist activities are concerned, after I left the Communist Party.
Mr. MORRIS. As I say, Mr. .Chairman, we have
testimony in our record
that a man who is the. head of the Communist Party unit at Brooklyn
College is today an active Communist organizer, he is today
Page 735
actively
engaged in assisting the Communist international organization.
Under those circumstances, would you tell us
who the leader of that
particular unit was?
Mr. GOLDMAN. :I: am sorry, sir, I have stated.
my position, and I can't
possibly abandon this position, which is a position of principle.
Mr. MORRIS. Mr. Reporter, will you read the
two questions now; one, who
was the leader of the Columbia unit, and who was the leader of the
Brooklyn unit?
(The questions were read by the reporter as
follows:)
Mr. MORRIS. Mr. Goldman, will you tell us who was the head, who was the
leader of the Communist unit at Columbia while you were a member of
that unit?
Mr. MORRIS. Mr: Goldman, will you tell us the name of the leader of the
Brooklyn unit while you were in Brooklyn of the Communist Party?
Senator WELKER. Now will you answer those
again?
Mr. GOLDMAN. I have already stated–
Senator WELKER. I am asking you to answer then
again, please, Mr.
Goldman.
Mr. GOLDMAN. My answer is I cannot in all good
conscience answer those
questions.
Senator WELKER. Do you have a constitutional
objection to answering
that question, or those questions?
Mr. GOLDMAN. I am not a lawyer, sir, and I do
not know what my legal
rights are in that.
Senator WELKER. You have able counsel with
you, and I will ask able
counsel if he has a constitutional objection to your answering those
questions?
Mr. BUTLER. Well, in order to make my client's
position absolutely
clear to this committee, I want to point out first that. my client is
standing on a moral right not to get other people into trouble in order
to get himself out of trouble. He feels–
Mr. MORRIS. That is, even though these people
may be part of the
Communist organization that is operating in Korea today ?
Mr. BUTLER. May I finish?
Mr. MORRIS. I am asking you a question in
connection with it.
Mr. BUTLER. He further thinks that this moral
right is his under the
first amendment of the Constitution of the United States involving
freedom of speech.
Senator WELKER. What?
Mr. BUTLER. Involving freedom of speech and
the freedom not to inform
on others when there has been no violation of law.
Senator WELKER. Is that it?
Mr. BUTLER. That is our contention.
Senator WELKER. The acting chairman does not
recognize that as a valid
objection. I want to say this to you, counselor, and to your client,
Mr. Goldman, that there is no desire whatsoever on the part o this
committee to get anyone in contempt of this committee; that is the
farthest thing from our thoughts, but we as a congressional committee
are charged with the duty of getting all the information: possible that
is legally obtainable from you, and therefore again I direct you to
answer that question, the two questions.
Mr. GOLDMAN. May I say that I certainly would
not care to be in
contempt of this committee, and say further that I have a great
Page 736
respect
for, the United States Congress, but again on moral conscience I must
retain nay original objection to answering that question.
Senator WELKER. Well, your moral-conscience
objection is not well taken
in the opinion of the committee, and I must inform you, sir, that much
as we regret to, we will have to consider this matter as being in
contempt of this subcommittee. Now if you would like to have a talk,
have a conference, with your counsel, we would be very happy to have
you do so. It is the Chair's opinion that you are in contempt. I hope I
am wrong, but I think perhaps you had better have a little talk with
your counsel.
Let the record show now that the witness has
departed from the witness
stand and is conferring with counsel.
Now after conferring with your counsel, do you
desire to make a
statement ?
Mr.GOLDMAN. Yes. My statement is that with all
due respect to the.
Senate of the United States, I must still stand upon my principles, and
I would like to add further that the principle isn't worth standing on
unless there is a problem in standing upon it. The fact that I am under
fire is no reason for abandoning a principle.
Senator WELKER. What do you mean by "under
fire"? You have been a very
cooperative witness here; you have gone all the way with us; you have
been very free with your testimony; but yet when you are asked the
question as to who the leader of the group happened to be, then you
hide behind, as I might say, an objection that is not valid and has no
basis in law and, therefore, I will have to direct you to answer those
questions, and if not, this committee has no other alternative than to
seek contempt citation for you, and I assure you again, Mr. Goldman,
we do not desire to do that.
Mr. GOLDMAN. I appreciate your statement,
Senator, and I hope you
appreciate my position, too. I think in a matter of this kind a person
must rest upon his own conscience. I could not in all conscience leave
this committee room with the knowledge that I had gotten other people
into trouble in order to save myself.
Again I would like to remind the committee and
the Senator that I have
come to this committee with the full determination to speak freely;
that I have not relied upon any legal immunities whatsoever. I have
stated my position; I have no other recourse but to stand by it.
Senator WELKER. You have spoken freely, Mr.
Goldman, up to a certain
point, and then you have relied upon an immunity that I never heard of
before as a practicing lawyer. I do hope that you reconsider your
position because of the fact that it is the desire of this committee
never to get anyone in contempt or in trouble if possible.
(Witness confers with counsel.)
Senator WELKER. You now have conferred with
your counsel. Do you now
desire to make a statement?
Mr. GOLDMAN. I have no further statement to
make, sir.
Senator WELKER.. I should advise you, Mr.
Goldman, and your counsel,
Mr. Butler, that one of the ways, and perhaps the best way this
committee has to know that a man is no longer a member, of the
Communist Party is his full disclosure of all the truth. Now you have
disclosed to the world that you were a member, an active member, of the
Communist Party. Yet, now at the crucial point you refuse to tell this
committee or to the world the leader of that group who
Page 737
might well be
engaged in espionage at this very time, taking. the lives of American
boys in Korea, and I do hope that you reconsider and give us the
benefit of your testimony, truthful testimony, only upon the questions
propounded to you.
Mr. GOLDMAN. I have given you the most
truthful testimony which I am
capable about myself. Senator WELKER. But you do not desire to mention
the name of the leader of the groups as related in the two questions
heretofore propounded to you?
Mr. GOLDMAN. I am sorry, sir; yes, that is my
position.
Senator WELKER. That is upon a moral ground
only?
Mr. GOLDMAN. As a layman, this is the only
ground I can argue.
Senator WELKER. And I am mindful, counsel; I
will save you the time of
that new theory of yours under the first amendment of the Constitution
which certainly this committee does not accept.. Mr Goldman, once again
I should inform you that this committee do not accept as valid the
objection as based by you or your counsel Mr. Butler.
You may proceed, Mr. Morris.
Mr. MORRIS. I have no more questions.
Senator WELKER. I might ask another question
even though you refuse to
name the leader of the groups. Would you care to give us the names of
anyone in the groups at all?
Mr. GOLDMAN. It seems to me the same
principle, the same position I
have stated applies to all
Mr. MORRIS. Do you know whether Howard Selsam
was the Communist leader
at Brooklyn College?
Mr. GOLDMAN. I am sorry, sir, I cannot answer
that question because it
seems to me you are leading by another route at this same sort of
question.
Senator WELKER. Have you ever had any meetings
with that man?
Mr. GoLDMAN. I am sorry, I cannot answer that
question.
Mr. MORRIS. Do you realize that Mr. Selsam is
still actively working in
the Communist international organization right now?
Mr. GOLDMAN. I haven't kept up with the
activities of Mr. Selsam.
S enator WELKER. You are basing your objection
upon the first amendment,
objection given by Counselor Butler, your objection to the moral
objection that you feel that you might have in your own heart?
(Mr. Goldman nodding.)
Senator WELKER. Any further questions?
Mr. MORRIS. I have no further questions, Mr.
Chairman, in view of the
position taken by the witness. I did have other questions but in view
of that, Mr. Chairman, I will desist.
Senator WELKER. If not, the hearing will
suspend.
I want to. thank you on behalf of Chairman
Jenner and the rest of the
committee, Mr. Goldman, and you, Mr. Butler, for appearing here.
Mr. BUTLER. Thank you.
(Whereupon, at 3 p. m., the subcommittee
recessed subject to the call
of the Chair.)