UNITED STATES SENATE,
                    SUBCOMMITTEE TO INVESTIGATE THE ADMINISTRATION
                                 OF THE INTERNAL SECURITY ACT AND OTHER INTERNAL
                                           SECURITY LAWS OF THE COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY,
                                                                                                                                     Washington, D. C.

     The subcommittee met, at 11 a. m., pursuant to call, in the Old Supreme Court room, the Capitol, Hon. William E. Jenner (chairman of the subcommittee) presiding.
     Present : Senators Jenner, Hendrickson, Welker, Smith, and Johnson.
     Present also : Robert Morris, subcommittee counsel, and Benjamin Mandel, research director.
     The CHAIRMAN. The committee will come to order.
     Will the witness stand and raise his right hand to be sworn? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you will give this committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
     Mr. NOVIKOFF. I do so swear.

    TESTIMONY OF ALEX BENJAMIN NOVIKOFF, BURLINGTON, VT.

     The CHAIRMAN. You may be seated.
     Doctor, state your full name for the record.
     Mr. NOVIKOFF. Alex Benjamin Novikoff.
     Mr. MORRIS. Will you spell that?
     Mr. NOVIKOFF. N-o-v-i-k-o-f-f.
     The CHAIRMAN. Where do you reside, Dr.,Novikoff?
     Mr. NOVIKOFF. Burlington, Vt.
     The CHAIRMAN. What is your business or profession?
     Mr. NOVIKOFF. I am professor of experimental pathology and an associate professor of biochemistry at the University of Vermont College of Medicine.
     May I ask that all pictures be taken now and not subsequently?
     The CHAIRMAN. That is the committee rule; yes. When testifying there will be no pictures taken.
     Mr. MORRIS. You may proceed with the questioning of the witness.
     Mr. NOVIKOFF. Will you give me a moment, please, to overcome the effect of the flash?
     The CHAIRMAN. Surely. You tell us when you are ready.
     Mr. NOVIKOFF. I am ready.
     Mr. MORRIS. Are you a member of the faculty of the University of Vermont?
     Mr. NOVIKOFF. I am, sir.


     Mr. MORRIS. Mr. Chairman, the purpose in calling this witness here today was because we had received. evidence in executive session that he had been a member of the Communist Party while he was a teacher in New York City in the late thirties and the early forties, and we have brought, Mr. Novikoff here in executive session approximately a month ago to ask him about that evidence.
     Senator Welker had an extended conversation with him after the executive session and wanted to give Mr. Novikoff every opportunity to realize the significance of his testimony when he came here today.
     Mr. Novikoff, were you a member of the Communist Party while you were a member of the faculty at Brooklyn College?
     Mr. NOVIKOFF. In answering this question I must indicate the objective effect that this and similar questions which I know will be asked can have, irrespective of the sincerity of the committee's motives. My being called down to Washington for this second time after having answered this question and similar ones fully and clearly
     Senator WELKER. Mr. Chairman, may I interrupt at this point?
     The CHAIRMAN. Senator Welker.
     Senator WELKER.  I think that the statement made by the witness about being called to Washington the second time is a terrible injustice to this committee and, in particular, to the Senator from Idaho. It was understood and agreed between the witness and the Senator from Idaho, with the consent of the chairman of this committee, that he would be given the right to go home and think this matter over for 3 weeks, and you agreed with me that you would think the matter over for 3 weeks and voluntarily come before this committee without expense to the committee or to the Government. Am I correct on that? You were in no sense called here the second time.  You voluntarily agreed to come here today; am I correct?
     Mr. NOVIKOFF. I meant no injustice to you, Senator Welker; as I have told you personally and in writing, I have the highest regard for you as a person and for the time and effort that you have put into my case.
     The CHAIRMAN. Dr. Novikoff, this committee has tried to grant not only to you but to other witnesses every courtesy. We are after facts; we are after the truth. We thought by granting you this courtesy that Senator Welker spoke of which I approved of that you would come back here and tell us the truth. You agreed to come back on a voluntary basis. We gave you time to think it over.
     Yon speak to us of creating a hardship on yourself. Doctor, if there is a hardship. in this case you have created it and not this committee.
     Mr. NOVIKOFF. May I say then to remove the insinuation which Senator Welker saw in the statement which I did riot intend, I assure you, let me say that asking me to repeat my testimony in public can serve only these purposes as I see it.
     First, I think it will jeopardize the great humanitarian task in which I am engaged and which is of such obvious importance to the Nation and to the world.
     The CHAIRMAN. But, Doctor, if you had come in here and told us in executive session the whole truth and nothing but the truth, you would not be here this morning. We do not want a dissertation this morning on how great a man you are.
     Mr. NOVIKOFF. May I finish?


     The CHAIRMAN. I do not care to hear any prepared statement from this witness. We have given every consideration in the world to this witness.   
     Mr: MORRIS. I submit that as late as 1946 this man was a teacher in a Communist training school in New York.
     The CHAIRMAN. You will answer the questions now, Doctor.
     Mr: NOVIKOFF. May I have 3 minutes?
     The CHAIRMAN. No; you will not have 3 minutes; you will answer the questions. If you have any prepared statements, you will submit them to the committee, and we will see if they are proper and then we will submit them for the record.
     Mr. NOVIKOFF. I would like to present the setting in which I answer this question, sir. It will take me 3 minutes.
     The CHAIRMAN. Will you repeat the question, Mr. Reporter?
     Mr. MORRIS. Were you a member of the Communist Party while you were teaching in New York City ?
     The CHAIRMAN. You can answer without a speech.
     Mr. NOVIKOFF. In answering this question, sir, I must beg you to put it in a setting which will save us plenty of time later. I wrote this out this morning because I am trying to avoid words which can be misinterpreted. If you give me 3 minutes
     The CHAIRMAN. The question does not lend itself to a long answer. Were you a Communist? If you were, you can say you were; if you were not, you can say you were not. If you want to invoke your privilege of the fifth amendment, you can do so.
     Mr: NOVIKOFF. I want to try to indicate the reasons for the answer I am about to give, sir.
     The CHAIRMAN. All right; go ahead.
     Mr. NOVIKOFF. Thank you, sir.
I can say that asking me to repeat the testimony that I gave in executive session in public session now can serve first to jeopardize the work that I have already described.
     The CHAIRMAN. It does not need to be jeopardized. I want to interrupt you again, that your work did not need to be jeopardized if you would come before this committee and tell the truth.
     Mr. NOVIKOFF. I understand your position in the matter, Senator Jenner. I am trying to state my own.
     The CHAIRMAN. Proceed.   
     Mr. NOVIKOFF. The work in which I am engaged, as I said, is of importance to the Nation and to the world. It is work which is trying to help find the cause and thereby the cure for cancer.
     The CHAIRMAN. Doctor, let me also interrupt you there. A Communist conspiracy operating in this country with the intent to overthrow this country by force and violence is also of importance to the world.
     Mr. NOVIKOFF. I grant that, sir.
     The CHAIRMAN. All right. You may proceed.
     Mr. NOVIKOFF. The second effect it may have is to embarrass the university with which I am proud to be associated and for which I have given every ounce of my energy for almost 5 years.
     Third, the effect is to distract my time and attention from the work in the laboratory. The committee knows from my previous testimony that I have had no connection whatever with any activities under



investigation by the committee at any time during the 5 years I have been at the University of Vermont.
     Mr. MORRIS. I wish, Mr. Novikoff, you would not talk about what knowledge the committee has at this time. It is entirely a voluntary statement and without foundation in fact.
     Mr. NOVIKOFF . I have devoted every bit of my time to cancer research, often made at the expense of my family, including for more than 2 years a desperately sick child.
     The CHAIRMAN. Did you ever devote any of your time to the Communist Party ?
     Mr. NOVIKOFF. May I finish?
     The CHAIRMAN. All right.
     Mr. NOVIKOFF. This cancer work is, I believe, on the verge of important findings. Recognition of the work we have done came last week at the scientific and cancer research convention in Chicago. I had arranged a symposium on certain cell structures in which may be locked many of the secrets of life, normal and cancer.
     The editor of one of the leading cancer journals of the country wrote me of this conference that the symposium on the structure and the mitochondria was superb:

     It will be recorded as a great historical event in the field of histology. Its Importance will be more and more realized as other investigations study the things said here.
     You are to be commended for your obviously careful planning and skill in organizing such an impressive history of mitochondria.

     Many similar letters have come to me. In addition, I was appointed to serve as one of its members for the next 3 years. This nomination was approved by the society. Also I was appointed by the council as the chairman of 'the entire program for next year's convention.
     I do not wish to appear immodest; I am simply trying to indicate to the committee that I am in a position to make a significant contribution to his very important area of cancer research. This committee is assuming, in my opinion, a grave responsibility by endangering the continuation of this work by insisting that I answer these questions which I have already answered in private or executive session.
     The CHAIRMAN. Doctor, we want to congratulate you upon your fine work in cancer research.
     Mr. NOVIKOFF. Thank you.
     The CHAIRMAN. And we would like to be able to congratulate you upon your being a fine citizen as being an American.
     Senator JOHNSTON. Mr. Chairman, I have listened to this statement. We are all interested in cancer work, every one of us. But I would like to ask the witness this question, What does that have to do with whether or not he is a Communist?
     Mr. NOVIKOFF. I am not a Communist, if you are asking me that, sir.
     Senator JOHNSTON. Were you a Communist when you were in New York teaching?
     Mr. NOVIKOFF. The reason that this has to do with the problem, I have tried to indicate because I have said to the committee and to Senator Welker privately everything that I could to indicate that I have had no connections whatever with any of the things that Communists are engaged in or considered to be engaged in for the 5 years that I have been doing this cancer work.


     Mr. MORRIS. Dr. Novikoff, since you have been in Vermont, since you have been teaching in the University of Vermont, you have been in touch with people whom you knew to be Communists; have you not?
     Mr. NOVIKOFF. You are asking me whom I knew to be Communists?
     Mr. MORRIS. Yes.
     Mr. NOVIKOFF. You are now asking me the same question.
     Mr. MORRIS. Did you know Melba Phillips to be a Communist?
     Mr. NOVIKOFF. Did I know her to be a Communist? You are asking me the same
     Mr. MORRIS. Did you know Melba Phillips to be a Communist?
     Mr. NOVIKOFF. You don't give me a chance to answer.
     Mr. MORRIS. I wish you would answer the question.
     Mr. NOVIKOFF You asked me about four questions since I tried to answer your first.
     The CHAIRMAN. Doctor, let us get the record straight.
     Read the question, Mr. Reporter.
     (The question was read by the reporter as follows:)

     Mr. MORRIS. Did you know Melba Phillips to be a Communist?

     Mr. MORRIS. Melba Phillips, Mr. Chairman, was a professor at Brooklyn College about whom we had evidence that she was a member of the Communist Party, and she was called before this committee and asked about her membership in the Communist Party, and she invoked her privilege against incrimination. We have had evidence in our records that this man has in fact seen Melba Phillips since he has been in the University of Vermont.
     I think our evidence shows that he knew Melba Phillips to be a Communist certainly while he was a fellow teacher of hers.
     Mr. NOVIKOFF. I am not a lawyer, sir; I have no lawyer with me. To me this seems to be, if I may use the word, a tricky question related to the first question, which I should like to answer now.
     I have not at any time for the 5 years I have been at the University of Vermont been connected with the Communist Party or any activities which are said to be engaged in by Communists.
     The CHAIRMAN. Were you ever a member of the Communist Party?
     Mr. NOVIKOFF. I wish to state that for the reasons I have indicated, because I do not want to embarrass the university, primarily, I have gone as far as discussing what I have done for the last 5 years. Prior to that time, I am sorry, particularly for Senator Welker, for whom I have the highest regard, that I must take the same position which I took in executive session.
     The CHAIRMAN. What position is that, Doctor?
     Mr. NOVIKOFF. I must decline to answer this question. I am now referring to the first question put by Mr. Morris and any questions relating to it under the privileges granted to me by the. Constitution of our country, particularly the fifth amendment, which states that a citizen need not be compelled to bear witness against himself.
     Mr. MORRIS. Did you tell the president of your university that you had never been a Communist, the president of Vermont University?
     Mr. NOVIKOFF. I did not, sir.
     Mr. MORRIS. Is it your testimony under oath today that you never represented to the president of your university that any allegation that you were a. Communist was false?
     Mr. NOVIKOFF. The word "represented" I do not understand, sir.



     Mr. MORRIS: Have you ever told or indicated in any way I to the president of-the University of Vermont that you have never been a Communist? I would like to have an unqualified answer to that, Doctor.
     Mr. NOVIKOFF. I have never stated to the president of the University of Vermont whether I: had or had not been a Communist.
     Mr. MORRIS. Did you deny that you had been a Communist?
     Mr. NOVIKOFF. I have just given the answer to that, Mr. Morris.
     Mr. MORRIS. Who was the counsel to the university?
     Mr. NOVIKOFF. The counsel of the university is Mr. Lisman.
     Mr. MORRIS. Who is the president?
     Mr. NOVIKOFF.. Dr. Carl Borgman.
     Mr: MORRIS. Did you ever tell Mr. Lisman that you had never been a Communist?
     Mr. NOVIKOFF. I never told Mr. Lisman that.  I understand that he got that impression from something which I said in a conference which I and the president and he had. I am sorry that he got that impression; I have tried very clearly—why don't you let me finish?  I mean, if you want to–
     The CHAIRMAN. Go right ahead.
     Mr. NOVIKOFF. I wish he were like the Senator, sir.
     The CHAIRMAN. Go right ahead.   
     Mr. NOVIKOFF. It is hard enough under these circumstances to say what one wants to say, and to be badgered this way–you may smile, sir. If you were in this seat, sir, you would not be smiling.
     Mr. MORRIS. Mr. Chairman, when this witness was first called before this committee we called the university out of courtesy to the university to let them know that he was being called down here. Mr. Lisman told me that he had discussed the matter with the president of the university and that we would have no trouble because this man would be a cooperative witness. I said, "Do you mean he is going to admit that he had been a Communist?" He said, "Well, this man has never been a Communist; he has told us so. He has given us every assurance that he has never been connected with the Communist organization in any way.”
     That is Mr. Lisman’'s conversation to me, and I submit that if there is any doubt we can call him down here and ask him.
     Mr. NOVIKOFF.  I must indicate, Senator, that we have gone through all of this in my previous meeting, and I regret deeply for Mr. Lisman’s sake and for the university that his name was brought into this picture. I said to Mr. Morris, I said to Senator Welker, and I don't know who else was present–
     Mr. M0RRIS. Senator Hendrickson.
     Mr: NOVIKOFF.  I don’t know if` he was there at the moment; he was out of the room.  I  said then what I have to say now, and I deeply regret, and in fact I am chagrined by the action of the counsel in bringing Mr. Lisman's name into the picture. It does him an injustice. I cannot say  why Mr.Lisman got that impression, apparently from what Mr. Morris was told by Mr. Lisman he got that impression.
     I was careful not to affirm or deny anything connected with my membership in the  Communist Party at the time I discussed this. I explained to him that at the present time, and this, by the way, was within a day or maybe the very day the subpena was served some 3 or 4 weeks ago. I explained that at the moment my initial impulse was to


use the one privilege granted to a witness under my circumstances, the fifth amendment, and speak of nothing relating to these problems.
     This was the position I. took, Mr. Morris. I discussed with him some of the activities I had been engaged in at Brooklyn College. From what I said they may have gained certain impressions, but I was extremely careful, sir, not to state whether I had or had not been, whether I was or was not.
     Finally, after some deliberation and during a second conversation with my president, I decided to compromise with what I considered at that time to be my principles solely for the sake of lessening the embarrassment to the University of Vermont, which is right now in the process of asking for money from the State legislature, and only for that reason did I suggest that I might be willing not to use the privilege of the fifth amendment for the time that I had been associated with that University.
     The CHAIRMAN. Doctor, that is why we called you into executive session. We hoped that you would not invoke. We hoped that you would tell us the whole story. We hoped that you would help this committee rather than hinder its work.
     Mr. NOVIKOFF. I assure you, sir; that I appreciate your having called me. I assure you further that I regret deeply that Mr. Lisman gave the wrong impression to the committee. It was not my intention that he be given that impression. It was not my intention that he communicate the impression that he had to the committee.
     The CHAIRMAN. Doctor, you can remove all impressions both pro, and con by testifying to the truth and the whole truth.
     Mr. NOVIKOFF. Sir, I didn't want to bring this up either in the session. I have gone over this. I don't know whether it is proper to reveal what came up in executive session, but you are bringing up all these matters. I indicated clearly then, I indicated to Senator Welker in a private letter, that people differ psychologically. Some are able. to talk and names names; some are not.
     Unfortunately in some ways I belong to the second category. I cannot be an informer, and this is what I was asked to do, to show that I was really telling the truth when I said I no longer had—when I said I had no connections whatever with the Communist Party and had had none for any time during the time I was at the University of Vermont.
     The CHAIRMAN. In other words, Doctor, you are not willing to help this committee in its task. Our task is primarily this: To show that there is a Communist conspiracy directed from Moscow to infiltrate the educational system of this country, to affect the lives of the youth of this Nation, and yet you as a professor and an outstanding cancer-research scientist will not help this committee break this insidious conspiracy that is gnawing at the very vitals of this country.
     Mr. NOVIKOFF. I would help this committee in every way I am able short of doing–
     The CHAIRMAN. Then all we ask you to do is to testify.
     Mr. NOVIKOFF. Short of doing the one thing that was asked of me. This was put to me that way, "You name names, and we will know you are telling the truth.” That I cannot do.
     The CHAIRMAN. Will you proceed with the questioning of the witness?



     Doctor, I admonish you to try to answer.
     Mr. MORRIS. Dr. Novikoff, have you knowledge that Melba Phillips has been a member of the Communist Party ?
     Mr. NOVIKOFF. As I said before, I am not a lawyer, and I don't understand what is behind the words
     Mr. MORRIS. Dr. Novikoff; did you attend Communist meetings with Melba Phillips?
     Mr. NOVIKOFF. I have indicated to you—I remember what you asked, and I want to make this clear. The counsel is referring again to something which occurred in private or executive session.
     The CHAIRMAN. Of course he is, because that is why we had the private or executive session, so that you might come in here and protect your career and tell the committee the truth. We even gave you an extension of 3 weeks to go back and think it over. We know what happened in executive session.
     Mr. NOVIKOFF. Maybe you have read the session. The counsel, I am sure, and Senator Welker, who has participated in this, knows what else happened in the session, which it is clear he has omitted from his presentation. I was asked whether I had ever seen since the time I was at  the University of Vermont people from Brooklyn College.
     I said that of course I had; I had been there many times on visits. Then I was asked to name the people whom I had seen. I objected, sir, as I would like now to object to naming anybody because it seems to me that innocent people would be brought into public record simply because of my words. That I did not want to do. I was pressed on this by the subcommittee in executive session, and I finally began to mention some people whom I had seen from Brooklyn College on my visits.
     I was interrupted by the counsel, as I recall it, and asked whether I had seen Melba Phillips, and I said "Yes." Then he said, "Where had you seen Melba Phillips?" The insinuation of his remarks before was that I had seen her at Communist meetings. I had clearly indicated before that that I had never been at Communist meetings.
     For these 5 years I had had no connection whatever in relation to Communist meetings. So it was clear from my previous testimony that I could not have possibly seen Melba Phillips. When he asked me where I had seen her, as I recall, I said that now that you ask me where I had seen her, I am not so sure, I may have seen her on my visits to Brooklyn College or at the American Association of Scientific Workers.
     Since I am not sure, I can best say that I think I had seen Melba Phillips, but since I don't remember where, I am not sure.
     The CHAIRMAN. Doctor, can you answer this simple question? Did you ever see Melba Phillips at a Communist meeting?
     Mr. NOVIKOFF. Everybody, sir, it seems to me brings this question–
     The CHAIRMAN.: It is a very simple question, Doctor. You are an intelligent man; you have told us how outstanding you are in cancer research. Certainly you can answer a simple question as to whether or not you ever saw Melba Phillips at a Communist meeting?.
     Mr. NOVIKOFF. Sir, I have tried to indicate that I will answer any questions the committee wishes to put to me for the 5 years that I. have been at the University of Vermont. If you insist on asking me


questions for time earlier, I will have to invoke the privilege as I have already indicated, and if this question is put, leaving in the word. "ever, " it would naturally include the period prior to that when I went to the University of Vermont, and therefore if you wish to ask it in that form I would have to invoke the privilege of the fifth amendment.
     The CHAIRMAN. That is exactly what we want. Proceed.
     Senator WELKER. May I have a question, Mr. Chairman?
     The CHAIRMAN. All right, Senator Welker.
     Senator WELKER. Dr. Novikoff, you brought my name into this matter several times. I hope I will be your friend, and I hope you will be mine.
     Mr. NOVIKOFF. I will be, sir.
     Senator WELKER. I conducted the hearings in the private session on behalf of the chairman of this committee, and I thought that I treated you with all the courtesy and respect that any witness has ever received in any quasi or judicial proceeding that I have ever attended.
     Mr. NOVIKOFF. You did, sir.
     Senator WELKER. Is it a fact, Doctor, that after that conversation we had probably a 2-hour conference?
     Mr. NOVIKOFF. About an hour.
     Senator WELKER. A very personal conference. At that time you were bothered with your conscience; were you not?
     Mr. NOVIKOFF. I was, sir.
     Senator WELKER. At that time I offered to call the president of the University of Vermont and the attorney for the University of Vermont in your behalf; am I correct, Dr. Novikoff?
     Mr. NOVIKOFF. Yes, Sir.
     Senator WELKER. I volunteered after our conversation to give you 2 weeks' time to think over the testimony. You then asked me for an additional week because you wanted to attend a meeting in Chicago. Is that correct?
     Mr. NOVIKOFF. That is, sir.
     Senator WELKER. I informed you, Doctor, that if you told the truth before the committee in private session that you could go forth with a clear conscience back to the University of Vermont, your testimony would remain private, and your reputation in no way hurt; am I correct in that?
     Mr. NOVIKOFF. Yes, sir. But I should make it clear what telling the truth really meant in concrete terms. You say telling the truth, but I had been told within the first 5 minutes that I spoke to Mr. Morris that that meant naming names.
     Senator WELKER. Dr. Novikoff, how can this committee tell whether or not a man has severed his connection with the Communist Party unless he tells us all the truth? Can you tell me that?
     Mr. NOVIKOFF. I have thought of that as you know because I wished there were a way for you to examine my brain. There isn't. You have. to take the sincerity of what I am saying; you have to look into what I have been doing. I have been at the laboratory day and night. I have been working on the data from the laboratory every minute of the day. I have been having 7 hours' sleep since this thing broke. How could I have been anywhere?
     Senator WELKER. You certainly know that there are many members of the Communist Party operating in what we call the underground sleepers, or floaters?  You know that; do you not?



     Mr. NOVIKOFF. I haven't heard the word"sleepers" or "floaters."
     Senator.WELKER. You know there are many members of the Coin-1nunist Party in our country operating underground without anyone,knowing of their activities? You know that; do you not?
     Mr, NOVIKOFF. I have read in the newspapers that this is the case.
     Senator WELKER. Now the only question propounded to you in private session was whether or not since you had gone to the University of Vermont, whether or not you had been in contact with known members of the Communist Party, and you refused to answer that question upon the grounds of your privilege under the fifth amendment; is that correct?
     Mr. NOVIKOFF. No; not as I recall it. I don't have the private testimony, and I never saw it. As I recall it, sir, that question was never put in that form... I have never seen anybody in a Communist meeting, Brooklyn College people included or anybody since the time I have been at the University of Vermont.
     Senator WELKER. Doctor, may I ask you. this: Since going to the University of Vermont, have you seen or have you communicated with any person known to you to be members of the Communist Party?
     Mr. NOVIKOFF. Sir, the word "known" to me to be members of the Communist Party is the very words which gives me difficulty.
     Senator WELKER. It gives you a little difficulty. Then may I say–
     Mr. NOVIKOFF. I will tell you why. Because "known to me" means that you are trying by this, not you but this question, by this way, is attempting to, get me to answer a question which antedates the time I went to the University of Vermont and on which I have used the privilege granted me by the fifth amendment.
     Senator WELKER. I will ask you this, and I know that you will appreciate–
     Mr. NOVIKOFF. I hope you appreciate what I am trying to say.
     Senator WELKER. Have you since going to the University of Vermont, have you ever communicated with, .ssociated with, any persons known to you to be a Communist prior to your joining the University of Vermont faculty?
     Mr. NOVIKOFF. This "prior to the University of Vermont," it seems .to me that this is the. question, this is the very area, which I have said antedating the time going to the University of Vermont, which I have used the privilege. If you ask me for. any specific person, I will be glad to tell you whether I have seen them since I went to the University of. Vermont.
     The CHAIRMAN. When did you sever your relationship with the Communist Party?
     Mr. NOVIKOFF. Sir, it seems to me that this is the same question that was put earlier in. a different form, and I must decline to answer this for the grounds previously indicated, or on the grounds previously indicated.
     Senator WELKER. Doctor, you have told this committee–
     The CHAIRMAN. Let the record show another fifth amendment which may tend to incriminate the witness.
     Senator WELKER. You have told this committee in private and now in public that since joining the University of Vermont faculty you have not been a member of the Communist Party?
     Mr. NOVIKOFF. That is correct.


     Senator WELKER..Yet you refuse to tell this committee whether or not since joining that faculty you have been. in communication or visited with persons known by you to be Communists prior to your joining the University of Vermont faculty. Am I correct?
     Mr. NOVIKOFF. I have tried to answer this twice, Senator. This is the third time. If you ask me whether I have seen this or that person since I have been at the University of Vermont, I will to the best of my ability answer whether I have, where I have seen them and in what connection. When you couple it as you do, sir, with a phrase at the end which asks me the very question which I have already declined to answer concerning the period prior to my going to the University of Vermont, it seems to me you defeat the very purpose you are trying to achieve.
     The CHAIRMAN. Pardon me, Senator. I would like to ask this question. Then, Doctor, since you have joined the University of Vermont, have you see Melba Phillips?
     Mr; NOVIKOFF. As I indicated before, I think I have.
     The CHAIRMAN. Where?
     Mr. NOVIKOFF. I am not certain. The most likely place is when I went to Brooklyn College. I see many people.
     The CHAIRMAN. Who else was present when you. saw her?
     Mr. NOVIKOFF. I can't even remember whether I saw her. When you go to Brooklyn College, as I do, I went through the corridors, I saw many people; I visited with many people.
     The CHAIRMAN. Did you talk to Melba Phillips?
     Mr. NOVIKOFF. If I saw her I surely talked to her. I am not sure; I imagine I did. I have been there a half-dozen times at least. Every time I am in New York, and if it is at all possible, I go out to Brooklyn College.
     Mr. MORRIS. When have you last seen Dr. Helen Wendler Dean Markham?
     Mr. NOVIKOFF. If you permit me to consult the calendar, I can tell you precisely.
     Mr, MORRIS. Dr. Markham is a member of the faculty of the Harvard Medical School about whom we have had evidence that she has been a member of the Communist Party. She appeared before this subcommittee while we were in Boston, Senator, and when asked those questions she denied again and again whether or not she was a member of the Communist Party.
     Senator WELKER. She denied?
     Mr. MORRIS. I mean invoked the fifth amendment; I am sorry, Senator.
     Mr. NOVIKOFF. Unless I misread the calendar, it was April 6 on which I. saw Dr; Dean last.
     Mr. MORRIS. Dr. Novikoff, where were you born?
     Mr. NovIKOFF. May I say where I saw Dr. Dean?
     Mr. MORRIS; You may.
     Mr. NOVIKOFF. I saw Dr. Dean at the annual convention of the Histochemical Society at which she gave a paper and the one to which I have already referred on which I had arranged a symposium.
     Mr. MORRIS. When did you see her before that, Doctor?
     Mr. NOVIKOFF. She is one of the active people in histochemistry. When I had seen her?
     Mr. MORRIS. Yes.


     Mr. NOVIKOFF. At the previous year's meeting.
     Mr. MORRIS.. When did you see her prior to that?
     Mr. NOVIKOFF. At the previous year's meeting of the Histochemical Society. I have seen her 3 times at the 3 meetings.
     Mr. MORRIS. You know Dr. Markham?
     Mr. NOVIKOFF, Obviously I do from these Histochemical Society meetings. She is one of the most active people in the field of histochemistry.
     Mr. MORRIS. Dr. Novikoff, where were you born ?
     Mr. NOVIKOFF. I was born in Russia.
     Mr. MORRIS What year?
     Mr. NOVIKOFF. 1913.
     Mr. MORRIS. When did you come to the United States?
     Mr. NOVIKOFF. 1913 to my knowledge. I am not sure, but I think it is 1913.
     Mr. MORRIS. When were you naturalized?
     Mr. NOVIKOFF. I was naturalized through my father's—what do they call that ?—derivative citizenship through my father's naturalization in 1918. I believe it is 1918.
     Mr. MORRIS. What degrees do you hold?
     Mr. NOVIKOFF. B. S., M. A., Ph. D.
     Mr. MORRIS. Where did you obtain your B. A. degree ?
     Mr. NOVIKOFF. I said B. S.
     Mr. MORRIS. B. S. degree?
     Mr. NOVIKOFF, All degrees were obtained at Columbia University.
     Mr. MORRIS. I see. In what year did you obtain your bachelor's degree?
     Mr. NOVIKOFF. 1931 probably.
     Mr. MORRIS. Were you a member of the Communist Party at that time?
     Mr. NOVIKOFF. I have already indicated that I must decline to answer all questions prior to the time I went to the University of Vermont.
     The CHAIRMAN. Just a minute. Let the record show the reason for it, privilege under the fifth amendment?
     Mr. NOVIKOFF. Yes; for the reason previously indicated.
     The CHAIRMAN. All right.
     Mr. MORRIS. Were you a member of the Communist Party when you obtained your master's degree?
     Mr. NOVIKOFF. Since this antedates the time I went to the University of Vermont, as you well know, I must invoke the same privilege. I should make it clear in doing so that I do not wish anybody here to assume that I was guilty of the thing that you are accusing me of. It is my understanding that the fifth amendment historically, certainly, and even under the present circumstances, is for the protection of innocent as well as for the guilty.
     I want it clearly understood by all present that by taking this position on these questions I am not saying that I am guilty of what you are by indirection accusing me of.
     Senator JOHNSTON. Did you have to write a thesis for your master's degree?
     Mr. NOVIKOFF. I believe I did, sir. I am not sure.
     Senator JOHNSTON. Do you recall what your master's degree thesis was written on?



     Mr. NOVIKOFF. Well, I certainly recall the work. Whether the thesis was required I do not recall. I can tell you the thesis of my Ph. D. In the master's I was working, as I remember it, on the transplantation of various parts of the egg of an amphibian related to a frog, triturus virdesens, or something like that. I had been staining various parts of the egg and so forth.
My recollection is that I didn't write a thesis; it didn't materialize far enough, but I did have to write a thesis for my Ph. D. I can tell you what that was.
     Mr.. MORRIS. What year did you obtain your Ph. D.?
     Mr. NOVIKOFF. 1938.
     Mr. MORRIS. Were you a member of the Communist Party at that time?
     Mr. NOVIKOFF. This is the same question that I have previously declined to answer for the reason indicated previously.
     Mr. MORRIS. On what faculties have you taught?
     Mr. NOVIKOFF. I have taught at Brooklyn College since 1931 until the time I went to Vermont, which was about 5 years ago, so it would be 1948. Since that time I have taught at the University of Vermont College of Medicine and I know you asked me this question before, before you ask me again, if I taught anywhere else, and I want to say I did teach for a little while two courses in biology at the Jefferson School in New York.
     Mr. MORRIS. When did you teach at the Jefferson School in New York?
     Mr. NOVIKOFF As I told you a few weeks ago, and I can't change it, probably in the period of 1945 or thereabouts, some 10 years ago or a little less.
     Mr. MORRIS. Do you know that the Jefferson School has been a Communist training school?
     Mr. NOVIKOFF. I have seen it listed as connected to the Communists, and whatever that Attorney General's list is, I have seen it listed there in the newspapers. I think after that time, however, I think.
     Senator WELKER. Answer the question. Did you know that it was a Communist training school?
     Mr. NOVIKOFF. I don't know what a Communist training school is. If it is connected to the Communists, if it is on a subversive list or the Attorney General's list, then you may interpret it as a Communist training school, and if it is so, then of course it would be. I can only tell you that the courses I gave had nothing to do with communism. I gave courses that were strict objective scientific courses in introductory biology and in the evolution of living matter.
     Senator WELKER. While you were at the Jefferson School, did you ever attend any Communist meetings with members of the faculty ?
     Mr. NOVIKOFF. This is the same question which I have already indicated. I must decline, I am sorry, to answer for the reasons previously given.
     Senator WELKER. Doctor, is it your idea that you might be incriminated by answering a question about your activities with a political organization that was legal, say, 16 or 15 years ago?
     Mr. NOVIKOFF. Well, if I had a lawyer here I would ask him whether I am correct in my interpretation, but I think this is the same question that I must decline to answer for the reason given, that it may tend to

     Mr. MANDEL. This is a photostat of the Daily Worker of January1946, page 5.
     Mr. MORRIS. Mr. Chairman, I would like to read this into the record.
     Senator JENNER. Proceed.
     Mr. MORRIS (reading) :

    Leading figures in the scientific, professional, and white-collar fields yesterday endorsed labor's fight for higher wages and blamed the big corporations for the strikes now waging.
    Officials of 12 national organizations acting as individuals sent a statement to is effect to 150 organizations in their fields.
    The statement was issued by the National Council of Scientific, Professional, rt, and White-Collar Organizations.
    Signers of the statement include Kirtley Mather, president of the National Council; Olive Van Horn, secretary, National Board of the YWCA; Alex Novikoff, Treasurer, American Association of Scientific Workers.

     Then it goes on to list other names, and I would like this whole ring to go into the record.
     The CHAIRMAN. Yes.
     (The information referred to is as follows :)

     Leading figures in the scientific, professional, and white-collar fields yesterday endorsed labor's fight for higher wages and blamed the big corporations r the strikes now waging.
     Officials of 12 national organizations acting as individuals sent a statement this effect to 150 organizations in their fields.
The statement was issued by the National Council of Scientific, Professional, rt, and White Collar Organizations.
     Signers of the statement include Kirtley Mather, president of the National Council; Olive Van Horn, secretary, National Board of the YWCA; Alex Novikoff, treasurer, American Association of Scientific Workers; Donald Dushane, NEA Commission for the Defense of Democracy Through Education; and Paul oward, American Library Association; Etnah Bouttee, National Council of Negro Women; Norma Boyd, National Non-Partisan Council on Public Affairs of Alpha Kappa Alpha; Antoinette Connon, Social Work Action Committee; Dorothy Kahn, American Association of Social Workers; Jacob Moscowitz, Architect; Melber Phillips, Federation of American Scientists; Sadie Shapiro, director of social service, Hospital for Joint Diseases; and Dr. Phillip White, Institute of Cancer Research.

     The CHAIRMAN. Doctor, does that refresh your memory as to whether or not you were ever an officer?
     Mr. NOVIKOFf. Sir, this is the clipping which Mr. Morris read into the executive session. I also remember very clearly the answer I gave. I said that this clipping in no way altered my statement. It is very interesting that counsel would put the clipping above my word which he could certainly, you have a research staff, I would hardly expect you to rely on the Daily Worker for the authenticity of fact.
     I stated that to my knowledge I was never an officer of that society. If I were, I would be proud to tell you so. It just so happens that I don't think I was. You trot out this clipping, which proves nothing. They could easily have associated, confused, my officership in the Council of Scientific, Professional, Art, and White Collar Organizations, or whatever it was called.
     I was an officer there and probably was treasurer. I told this to the counsel and committee, and this reporter, or whoever wrote this,

probably confused the two. This was made clear to him, and this is now trotted out as evidence to impugn the veracity of my evidence. This is what grieves me.
     Senator WELKER. I want to ask you, my friend, to please cool yourself down. There is no one–
     Mr. NOVIKOFF. I wish he would–
     Senator WELKER. Just a moment. We have a job to do here, and we have to introduce evidence. This goes to the weight and not to the credibility of this testimony, your testimony, your direct testimony that you were not treasurer of that organization. Of course, in my opinion as one member, it has more weight than a statement in the Daily Worker, but this proof must go into the record, Doctor, and it will be weighed by the committee.
     Mr. NOVIKOFF. I appreciate that.
     The CHAIRMAN. Proceed.
     Mr. CHAIRMAN.   I would like to point out that before we can have this man's denial in the record, we have to submit the evidence that he was treasurer of that organization.
     The CHAIRMAN. That is correct.
     Mr. MORRIS. This continued abuse on the part of the witness of a logical proceeding here is completely without precedent as far as this committee is concerned.
     Mr. NOVIKOFF. I would submit, sir, as a scientist I know that one has to weigh evidence, and I would think it would be a lot easier to find out by writing to the present officers of the Association of Scientific Workers to check on the correctness of what I have said.
     Senator WELKER.  It is perfectly obvious, Mr. Witness, Dr. Novikoff, that when you make a blanket denial like that that it is obvious to the committee that you would not want to get yourself in a position where you would be guilty of perjury.
     Mr. NOVIKOFF. That is correct.
     Senator WELKER. When we put in the evidence, we are doing the best we can with the material we have. Please feel that we are not trying to embarrass you, but, like counsel stated, before we can get the denial we certainly must have the record clear from which you can base your denial.
     Mr. NOVIKOFF. Thank you, sir.
     The CHAIRMAN. Proceed.
     Mr. MORRIS. Dr. Novikoff, have you been the treasurer of any scientific organization?
     Mr. NOVIKOFF. I indicated before that I think I was the treasurer, I know I was an officer, and I think the treasurer, of that society called—words to this effect, I don't remember the precise wording—the National Council of Scientific–
     Mr. MORRIS. Professional, Art, and White Collar Organizations?
     Mr. NOVIKOFF. Something to that effect.
     Mr. MORRIS. Were you a member of the Communist Party when you held that position?
     Mr. NOVIKOFF. I held that position long before I went to the Uni- versity of Vermont, and therefore your question is the same question in different form which I have already indicated I must decline to answer for the reasons already stated.
     Mr. MORRIS. In other words, you cannot tell us whether when you held this position you were a member of the Communist Party on the grounds it might incriminate you?                     

     The CHAIRMAN.  Are there any questions by any member of the committee?
     If not, youmay stand aside.

Page 814



Page 815