TESTIMONY OF MISS MELBA PHILLIPS, NEW YORK, N. Y., ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL, CAMMER & SHAPIRO, NEW YORK, N. Y.

      Mr. MORRIS. Will you give your full name and address to the reporter?
      Miss PHILLIPS. Melba Phillips, 198 West Eleventh, New York.
      Mr. MORRIS. Is that M-e-l-b-a P-h-i-1-1-i-p-s ?
      Miss PHILLIPS. Many of my friends have called me Elba because I look like the opera singer, but it is a nickname.
      Mr. MORRIS. What is your proper name?
      Miss PHILLIPS. Melba.
      Mr. MORRIS. Where do you teach, Mrs. Phillips—is it "Miss" or "Mrs."?
      Miss PHILLIPS. Miss.
      Mr. MORRIS. Where do you teach?
      Miss PHILLIPS. Brooklyn College.
      Mr. MORRIS. What do you teach there?
      Miss PHILLIPS. Mechanics and physical science.
      Mr. MORRIS. Have you ever been a member–
      Senator SMITH. Did you say "mechanics"?
      Miss PHILLIPS. And physical science.
      Mr. MORRIS. Have you ever been a member of the Communist Party?
      Miss PHILLIPS. My response to that question is dictated by my view of professional and personal ethics, first to do my professional job as well as it is humanly possible, and second, to defend and maintain my individual and personal right which I thought was my right so long as I was a law-abiding citizen. I know you conduct these hearings by certain rules which make it necessary for me, in order to stand on my principles, to invoke the Bill of Rights. My ancestors fought for that Bill of Rights and I am very glad to make use of the first, fifth, and sixth amendments.
      Senator FERGUSON. Do you refuse, then, to answer on the grounds that it might tend to incriminate you?
      Miss PHILLIPS. I use the fifth amendment.
      Senator FERGUSON. If you will just name it by name. You see, as I understand the law, you claim the privilege on the ground that it would be testifying against yourself.
      Miss PHILLIPS. If I remember my history correctly, Senator Ferguson, the origin of the fifth amendment is in ecclesiastical and not civil law. I am not a historian. The word happens to be "incriminate," but it certainly includes what I mean.
      Senator SMITH. That would be a matter for the courts to decide, eventually, in your case if you want it there.
      Miss PHILLIPS. That is right.
      Senator SMITH. We just want to get your reason for declining to answer, and I think that Senator Ferguson propounds a perfectly fair question.
      Miss PHILLIPS. The first and fifth and sixth amendments.
      Senator SMITH. If you say you are refusing to testify under your rights in the fifth amendment, and those rights are because you feel that your testimony would tend to incriminate you, then certainly the Chair has no desire to do other than give you full benefit of all of your constitutional rights.
      Miss PHILLIPS. Thank you.
      Senator SMITH. But if you are just trying to hide behind a phrase of this or that amendment, that is something else.
      Miss PIIILLIPS. No.
      Senator FERGUSON. Then do you claim that it might tend to incriminate you, and for that reason you do not answer ?
      Miss PHILLIPS. I thought the chairman had made my position quite clear on that.
      Senator SMITH. I am asking your position. Do you refuse to answer on the ground that your testimony would tend to incriminate you?
      Miss PHILLIPS. I certainly do.
      Senator SMITH. All right. That is it.
      Mr. MORRIS. Are you presently the member of the Communist Party?
      Miss PHILLIPS. The same answer applies.
      Senator SMITH. For the same reason? May I ask you one question: You said that you understood as long as you were a law-abiding citizen. Do you regard the Communist Party as any threat to America and its liberties and freedom?
      Miss PHILLIPS. This is not a part of my professional duty to answer that question, and therefore, I shall, if you permit me, decline to answer.
      Senator SMITH. Do you regard the Communist Party as a law-abiding organization?
      Miss PHILLIPS. Do I have privilege on this, too?
      Senator FERGUSON. Do you claim it?
      Miss PHILLIPS. I do claim it.
      Senator FERGUSON. On the same grounds?
      Miss PHILLIPS. Yes.
      Senator SMITH. You claim, then, that the Communist Party is a law-abiding organization?
      Miss PHILLIPS. No; I am declining to answer the question.
      Senator FERGUSON. On the grounds you stated before?
      Miss PHILLIPS. Yes.
      Senator SMITH. Now, do you claim that American citizens who are members of the Communist Party are law-abiding citizens within the meaning of the way you used the phrase a few moments ago?
      Miss PHIILLIPS. Mr. Chairman, I said that I do my job the best that it can be humanly done.
      Senator SMITH. I understood that.
      Miss PHIILLIPS. I am defending and maintaining my rights beyond that. I am therefore trying to be consistent on the basis of this, and I invoke the fifth amendmen. t
      Senator SMITH. You use the term "law-abiding citizen." I want to know whether or not you regard the members of the Communist Party, as you understand it, law-abiding citizens in America.
      Miss RIEDMAN. That question I am declining to answer. May I tell you why I used the words "law abiding?" Because I don't think I would have the right to go out and murder somebody, you see. I used the words "law abiding."
      Senator SMITH. You know the Communists have not hesitated to murder people, do you not?
      Miss RIEDMAN. I am afraid I don't know any such.
      Mr. MORRIS. Have you been associated with the National Conference of the Professions, Sciences, and Arts?
      Miss RIEDMAN. I shall decline to answer that question for the reasons given.
      Mr. MORRIS. Have you been associated with the Association of Scientific Workers?
      Miss RIEDMAN. I decline to answer the question for the reasons given.
      Mr. MORRIS. Are you associated with the Greenwich Council on Peaceful Alternatives?
      Miss RIEDMAN. I decline to answer the question on the grounds given.

      Senator FERGUSON. Have you ever been a member of the Teachers Union?
      Miss RIEDMAN. Yes.
      Senator FERGUSON. You answer that question freely.
      Miss RIEDMAN. I am making use–
      Senator FERGUSON. Did you ever know that the Teachers Union was Communist-dominated?
      Miss RIEDMAN. I don't know that that question applies as much about the Teachers Union as it implies about me, and therefore I shall refuse to answer the question on the grounds that it would incriminate me.
      Mr. MORRIS. Were you a member of the Joint Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee?
      Miss RIEDMAN. I shall be consistent about this. I shall refuse to answer on the grounds that it might tend to incriminate me.
      Senator SMITH. Are you being consistent because you want to be consistent or just because you do not want to answer that question of whether or not you were a member?
      Senator FERGUSON. Consistency would not be a reason.
      Miss RIERMAN. I told you first, at the beginning, that my attitude is based on my view of professional and personal integrity.
      Senator SMITH. That was not the question we asked you. We asked you why you used the words "for the reason of consistency." You remember, I believe it was Emerson who said that a foolish consistency is a hobgoblin in a little mind. I. do not want to put you in that place now. Are you refusing to answer that just because you don't want to admit that you were associated or just because you want to be consistent?
      Miss RIEDMAN. That is not my reason.
      Senator SMITH. What is your reason for declining to answer?
      Miss RIEDMAN. My own reason for declining to answer is that it is not a part of my official duty whether I was or not. However. according to your rules, you enable me to maintain my own principles so long as I invoke the fifth amendment. Therefore, I do.
      Senator SMITH. Do you understand that you have the right to invoke the fifth amendment even though the answer to the question would not tend to incriminate you? Is that your idea of the fifth amendment?
      Miss RIEDMAN. No, I think that one must admit that incrimination nowadays involves trial by newspaper publicity and so forth. too. That is, I am sincere in this.
      Senator FERGUSON. Mr. Chairman, I move that you do not recognize the right of this witness to claim self-incrimination when she is specifying about trial by newspapers. That is what she is saying. Certainly that is not a reason for not answering a question. Criminal law means trial by courts, trial by judicial proceedings, government procedure, and not what she is claiming.
      Mies RIEDMAN. Do I have the privilege of claiming the fifth amendment on the question?
      Senator FERGUSON. If you really claim it on the grounds that it would tend to incriminate you, but not that the newspapers might say something about you.
      Miss REIDMAN. I sincerely claim it, Senator.
      Senator FERGUSON. On the grounds it would tend to incriminate you?
      Miss RIEDMAN. That it might tend to incriminate me, yes.
      Mr. MORRIS. Were you associated with the American Association of Scientific Workers in their statement calling for an international agreement to ban the use of atomic weapons ?
      Miss RIEDMAN. I decline to answer that question.
      Mr. MORRIS. For the same reason?
      Miss RIEDMAN. Yes, sir.
      Mr. MORRIS. Now, were you connected with the national reception committee of the Joint Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee given for Mme. Aileen Joliet-Curie?
      Miss RIEDMAN. I am sorry, I simply don't remember.
      Mr. MORRIS. Did you ever meet the atomic scientist, Joseph Weinberg?
      Miss RIEDMAN. I met him once.
      Mr. MORRIS. What was the occasion of your meeting him?
      Miss RIEDMAN. He gave a paper, scientific paper, at a scientific meeting.
      Mr. MORRIS. That is all.