TESTIMONY OF GEORGE A. TIMONE, CHAIRMAN, LAW COMMITTEE, BOARD OF EDUCATION,
NEW YORK CITY


TESTIMONY OF MURRAY YOUNG, BROOKLYN, N. Y., ACCOMPANIED BY JOSEPH FONER, ESQ.,
     WASHINGTON, D. C.

     The CHAIRMAN. You may be seated. You are represented by counsel, Mr. Foner, for the record?
     Mr. YOUNG. Yes.
     The CHAIRMAN. State your name to the committee.
     Mr. YOUNG. Murray Young.
     The CHAIRMAN. Where do you live, Mr. Young?
     Mr. YOUNG. 27 Grace Court, Brooklyn, N. Y.
     The CHAIRMAN. What is your business?
     Mr. YOUNG. I am an instructor at Brooklyn College.
     The CHAIRMAN. Brooklyn College, New York?
     Mr. YOUNG. That is right. I teach English.
     The CHAIRMAN. You may proceed.
     Mr. YOUNG. I would like very much to make a statement, if I could.
     The CHAIRMAN. You can submit the statement here to counsel and we will see whether it is proper to go into the record. Although we have a 24-hour rule, we will be glad to receive your statement.
     Mr. MORRIS. What is your salary now, Mr. Young?
     Mr. YOUNG. Well, it is something around $6,000. I am not quite sure of the exact figure.
     Mr. MORRIS. What work do you do on the faculty, Mr. Young?
     Mr. YOUNG. I am a teacher.
     Mr. MORRIS. What else do you do? Have you any other assignments on the faculty? Are you adviser to any student groups?
     Mr. YOUNG. At present I am not.
     Mr. MORRIS. Have you been in the past?
     Mr. YOUNG. Yes.
     Mr. MORRIS. Will you tell us what that was?
     Mr. YOUNG. For many years I was adviser to the Observer, which was at that time, it is no longer in existence, the student literary paper. I was adviser to the English Club. Those are the two things I can think of at the moment.
     Mr. MORRIS. Have you held any other such positions on the faculty of the college?
     Mr. YOUNG. You mean in an advisory capacity?
     Mr. MORRIS. That is right.
     Mr. YOUNG. I can't recall any at the moment. I may—I can't recall any at the moment. I may very well have had some other such posts.
     Mr. MORRIS. Are you now a member of the Communist Party, Mr. Young?
     Mr. YOUNG. I shall have to refuse that question because I would—I would like to explain why. In contrast to the first witness you had here, Mr. Withers, I don't feel, as Mr. Withers does, that this committee is a great honor at the present time. As a matter of fact, I feel I am somewhat at an inquisition.
     Mr. MORRIS. You feel this committee has no right to ask you whether or not you are presently a member of the Communist Party, is that right, Mr. Young?
     Mr. YOUNG. No. May I tell this statement? I feel I have been brought before this committee.
     Senator SMITH. Just a moment.


     Let him answer the question asked him.
     The CHAIRMAN. You may answer the question, Mr. Young. You are here and you have counsel. Your rights will be respected before ths committee. You are not here before an inquisition board. You can either answer the question or you can't.
     Mr. YOUNG. I feel that it is inquisitional, that your purpose is to go into the sacred realm of my private opinion and for this reason and for my rights under the provisions of the fifth amendment, I refuse to answer these questions.
     The CHAIRMAN. This committee will recognize your rights under the fifth amendment and you do not have to answer if you assert those rights. Do you mean by that the testimony that you might give -might tend to incriminate you?
     Mr. YOUNG. I don't know—at this present time under these circumstances I have no way of knowing.
     The CHAIRMAN. You have counsel. In other words, your refusal to answer under the fifth amendment, what are your reasons for refusing to answer under the fifth amendment? You have counsel. You know your rights.
     Mr. YOUNG. May I consult?
     The CHAIRMAN. You may.
     (The witness conferred with his counsel.)
     Mr. YOUNG. It grows out of the fifth amendment itself. I don't want to give testimony against myself.
     The CHAIRMAN. You do not want to give testimony against yourself ?
     Mr. YOUNG. That is right.
     The CHAIRMAN. We will recognize that. That is a valid excuse. Therefore, you are not before a board of inquisition, you are before a board legally constituted by the law of the United States Senate. We are here to perform a duty.
     Senator JOHNSTON. So it is your opinion, if you were asked if you were a Communist, that if you would answer that question by saying "No," that that might incriminate you?
     Mr. YOUNG. For the reasons previously given, I ask the privilege of the fifth amendment not to give testimony against myself.
     Mr. MORRIS. Mr. Young, have you ever attended secret meetings of the Communist Party?
     Mr. YOUNG. For the reasons given and the privileges under the fifth amendment, I decline to answer the question.
     Mr. MORRIS. Have you ever attended secret meetings of the Communist Party in conjunction with or in company with members of the faculty of your college?
     Mr. YOUNG. For the reasons given and for my rights under the fifth amendment, I refuse to answer the question.
     The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Young, do you have any objections to your photograph being taken at this time? If you do, it will not be taken.
     Mr. YOUNG. Certainly not.
     The CHAIRMAN. You can proceed with the pictures and then we will proceed with our questions.
     Mr. MORRIS. Mr. Young, are you aware of the fact that you were identified during the New York State legislative committee in 1941 as a member of the Communist Party by a professor on the staff of your university?



     Mr. YOUNG. That information appeared in the newspapers; yes.
     Mr. MORRIS. Were you called to testify at that time in connection with that testimony?
     Mr. YOUNG. I was called to testify in private hearings; yes.
     Mr. MORRIS. Did you deny membership in the Communist Party on that occasion?
     Mr. YOUNG. I did.
     Mr. MORRIS. Were you in fact a member of the Communist Party at that time?
     Mr. YOUNG. I refuse under the rights of the fifth amendment to answer that question.
     Mr. MORRIS. Was your reason for not testifying, for testifying in the negative at that time, advice given to you that there was only one witness available who could testify to the fact that you were in fact a member of the Communist Party?
     Mr. YOUNG. Again .I plead my protection under the fifth amendment.
     Mr. MORRIS. While you were an adviser to the Observer were you a member of the Communist Party?
     Mr. YOUNG. Again I ask my rights under the fifth amendment.
     Mr. MORRIS. While you were acting as adviser to the Observer, the student paper of Brooklyn College, were you meeting secretly with members of the Communist Party ?
     Mr. YOUNG. I again ask for my privilege not to give testimony against myself under the fifth amendment.
     Mr. MORRIS. Were you ever an adviser to the Young Communist League?
     Mr, YOUNG. Again I ask for my privileges under the fifth amendment not to answer that question.
     Mr. MORRIS. Did you ever meet with members of the Young Communist League who were in fact students of Brooklyn College?
     Mr. YOUNG. Again I ask for my privileges under the fifth amendment not to give testimony against myself.
     Mr. MORRIS. Mr. Chairman, I have no more questions.
     Senator SMITH. Do you recognize any duties under the American Constitution as a teacher or public official?
     Mr. YOUNG. I recognize my full duties, Senator.
     Senator SMITH. Well, do you think that your duties are being fulfilled when you refuse to give to this committee information that you apparently have as to your own situation when that might help this committee and help the Congress to ferret out the Communist plan to dominate the education process in America?
     Mr. YOUNG. I think that the effect of this committee is to destroy the academic freedom.
     Senator SMITH. I did not ask you that. I asked you whether or not you thought it was your duty under the Constitution to give the information that we ask for.
     Mr. YOUNG. I think it is my duty as a citizen to support and protect freedom of thought and speech in this country.
     Senator SMITH. Do you think it would hurt freedom of thought and speech for you to tell us the truth as to whether or not you have been or are a member of the Communist Party and whether or not you have been meeting or have met with Communists?



     Mr. YOUNG. I think to cooperate with this committee and the end of this committee, it seems to me is a real danger to freedom of thought and expression in this country and I do not want to be a party to weakening this great tradition.
     Senator SMITH. YOU follow the Communist line immediately, then, when you go before a board or committee or court to start a campaign of abuse against the committee, the courts, as was done in the Communist trial before Judge Medina, as was done in the treason trial before Judge Kaufman, and cases of that sort. You consider that to be your duty; is that right ?
     Mr. YOUNG. You asked for my opinion and I gave it. Surely that is one of my privileges, to give my opinion.
     Senator JOHNSTON. Is it your opinion that you should be allowed to practice here as a teacher the communistic program?
     Mr. YOUNG. I am afraid I don't understand that question.
     Senator JOHNSTON. Do you think that you should be allowed to teach in a school, then, the communistic views?
     Mr. YOUNG. I am an English teacher. I teach subjects that are set for me and the courses that are set for me.
     Senator JOHNSTON. You come in contact with the students, do you not?
     Mr. YOUNG. I would have to as a teacher. It would be difficult to teach without doing that.
     Senator JOHNSTON. And doing that, you have them looking up to you in a way, do they not?
     Mr. YOUNG. Insofar as I am a good teacher, I certainly hope they look up and respect me.
     Senator JOHNSTON. And you would have a large influence over them, would you not?
     Mr. YOUNG. Well, I–
     Senator JOHNSTON. Go ahead.
     Mr. YOUNG. I am afraid I cannot say. I suppose every teacher hopes that by helping students to understand something about the nature of the world, something about the great literature of the past, that he does influence you. That is why you are hired; that is why you are kept on in a position.
     Senator JOHNSTON. And, if you had communistic views as a teacher, isn't it true that you would wield a great influence over that student?
     Mr. YOUNG. I am afraid I can't answer that question.
     The CHAIRMAN. Let me ask you this question, Professor Young.
     Do you think it is proper and all right for Communists to teach in the public schools and universities and colleges of this country?
     Mr. YOUNG. If they are competent teachers within their field, yes.
     The CHAIRMAN. The witness is excused.
     Senator HENDRICKSON. One moment, please, Mr. Young. I must assume from all your testimony, or lack of it, that you disagree totally with Dr: Jones of Rutgers University in New Jersey on this subject.
     Mr. YOUNG. I don't know who Dr. Jones is.
     Senator HENDRICKSON. You never heard of Dr. Jones?
     Mr. YOUNG. Perhaps I have, but I don't know what you are referring to, what the statement of his is.
     Senator HENDRICKSON. You have not read his statement?
     Mr. YOUNG. Where would I read it?



     Senator HENDRICKSON. It has been in the paper.
     Mr. YOUNG. Perhaps I didn't read it thoroughly enough.
     Senator HENDRICKSON. You testified about your academic background. What degrees have you?
     Mr. YOUNG. I have an A. B. and M. A.
     Senator HENDRICKSON. Where did you go to college?
     Mr. YOUNG. University of Notre Dame and Columbia and NYU.
     Senator HENDRICKSON. Before that, what was your school training?
     Mr. YOUNG. Well, I went to the regular public high school.
     Senator HENDRICKSON. You were born in the United States, were you?
     Mr. YOUNG. Yes; I was.
     Mr. MORRIS. Did you ever use the Communist Party name of West?
     Mr. YOUNG. I refuse under my rights under the fifth amendment to answer that question.
     Mr. MORRIS. Were you ever known as Comrade West?
     Mr. YOUNG. Again I plead my rights under the fifth amendment.
     Mr. MORRIS. Do you know that there has been public testimony by Professor Grebanier to the effect that you were known in the secret unit of Brooklyn College as Comrade West?
     Mr. YOUNG. You are reading from the newspaper clipping.
     Mr. MORRIS. Are you aware that he has publicly testified to that?
     Mr. YOUNG. I read the newspaper ; yes.
     Mr. MORRIS. You know that he did testify to that?
     Mr. YOUNG. Yes; he did testify to that.
     Mr. MORRIS. And were you in fact ever known as Comrade West?
     Mr. YOUNG. I refuse to answer for the same reasons stated.
     Senator HENDRICKSON. Where were you born in the United States and when?
     Mr. YOUNG. I was born in Oklahoma, 1907.
     Senator HENDRICKSON. Thank you.
     Mr. MORRIS. I have no more questions.
     The CHAIRMAN. The witness will be excused.
     The public hearing this morning is completed. I will ask the room now to be cleared. The committee wants to hold an executive session.
     (Whereupon, at 11: 45 a. m. the committee was recessed subject to the call of the Chair.)