The subcommittee met at 10: 30 a. m., pursuant to recess, in room 1305, United States District Court Building, Foley Square, the Honorable Homer Ferguson presiding.
     Present : Senator Ferguson.
     Also present: Robert Morris, subcommittee counsel, and Benjamin Mandel, director of research.

TESTIMONY OF BELLA V. DODD, ACCOMPANIED BY HER COUNSEL,  GODFREY P. SCHMIDT—Resumed

     Senator FERGUSON. The committee will come to order.
     Dr. DODD, you have been sworn, and we will continue the examination.
     I wanted to ask some preliminary questions of you.
     About how long would you say it took you to become a Communist?
     Mrs. DODD. I would say that before I became completely committed it took me at least, 3, 4, 5 years.
     Senator FERGUSON. Were you a Socialist prior to being a Communist?
     Mrs. DODD. No; I was not. As a matter of fact, I went directly from a liberal, humanistic Christian to communism.
     Senator FERGUSON. When you went to communism, did you give up your religion?
     Mrs. DODD. I did.
     Senator FERGUSON. Do you think that communism requires a person to surrender his religion and take, as a substitute, communism?
     Mrs. DODD. There is no doubt that the Marxist-Leninist principles are completely materialistic and, therefore, against anything which has to do with God or religion.
     At different times in the history of the Communist Party, they emphasized the fact that it was possible for you to be religious and, at the same time, Communist. But those were the periods in which they were trying to win over larger numbers of, let's say, Catholic trade-unionists, Catholic workers, and so forth and so on. Those


were the periods which were called the periods of extending the hand of communism to the people in the religious groups.
     What you did was to say substantially this : "These men have a blind spot. They believe in God, but we Communists know that there is no God. But in order to get them to work with us, we will work with them on a minimum program."
     As a matter of fact, even when you were in the Communist Party, the Communist Party from time to time established committees like the—there was a committee on Catholics for Human Rights, which consisted of Communists who had been Catholics, whose purpose it was to work with mass organizations which had a large number of Catholics.
     Substantially, Marxism-Leninism denies that there is any soul; that there is any after life; that there is any God. That is part and parcel of the entire theory.
     Senator FERGUSON. So, in this period when you said you did not carry a card, you were developing your belief in communism?
     Mrs. DODD. Yes; I was.
     Senator FERGUSON. How long would you say that it took you to absolutely break, if you have absolutely broken, with the Communist ideology?
     Mrs. DODD. It is hard to put a limit on when you completely became a Communist and when you completely ended being a Communist.
     All I can say it is a long period. You begin with certain doubts. They become intensified, and then you break. I would say my complete break didn't occur until 1952.
     Senator FERGUSON. 1952—your complete break?
     Mrs. DODD. That is right. There are things which hang on.
     Senator FERGUSON. I noticed in the press this morning there was a statement that you had gone back to your church.
     Mrs. DODD. Yes ; I have.
     Senator FERGUSON. Would you say, at the time you went back to your church, that you consider that the complete break?
     Mrs. DODD. I did not go back to my church until I had made the complete break, and that was on April 7 of this year. I was conditionally rebaptised.
     Senator FERGUSON. One of the reasons why I ask you these questions is that, in hearings on communism in America, the Internal Security Subcommittee has discovered that testimony seems to be of what has happened in the past. It may be that the public does not understand why the committees are not quite up to date, why they are dealing in past rather than in actual present history.
     Now, it takes a person such as you, who has been in communism and one who can give the facts, such a long time to come out of communism that it is almost impossible for us to be what is known as current.
     Can you explain that on the record?
     Mrs. DODD. Let me try.
     Communism is not just a belief in economics or in politics or in foreign affairs; it is not just the support of the Soviet Union. Communism is a whole philosophy of life. It permeates everything that you do. It permeates your family life, your relationship with your friends, your business relationships, the professional relationships It has to do with your own thinking of what the importance of man is.



     Therefore, if you once build up a philosophy of life and you are living by it and you live by it for a certain number of years and then you make the break, you have to take every phase of your life, every strand of your body practically, and every thought that you have, and you have to reexamine it and reformulate it into a pattern which is understandable.
     Now, many people break with the Communist Party—because the Communist Party has a tremendous turn-over; people come in and go out—but do not find any new philosophy to substitute for it. Therefore, they live as vacuums, and many of them disintegrate. I mean just become morose people, or people who are just lost to a decent living.
     But this whole question of honestly trying to reformulate your philosophy is a long process if you are an honest person.
     Senator FERGUSON. I have one question here. You stated that one time, I am informed, after you had actually been expelled from the party—and, as I understand it, they do expel people who are known to deviate from their party lines—that the Communist Party was very similar to any political party; its only purpose was to get into power.
     Now, after you have broken entirely with the Communist Party, is that a true, accurate statement of what the Communist Party is in America?
     Mrs. DODD. No ; it isn't. The Communist Party in America is a conspiracy. It is both a legal and an extra-legal and an illegal apparatus. It is a mechanism for bringing about the preconditions for a Marxist-Leninist victory in America.
     Senator FERGUSON. Then it is revolutionary and believes in revolution to accomplish its purpose; that is, the overthrow of this Government; is that correct?
     Mrs. DODD. There is no doubt about that. And when the Communist Party issues statements that all it does is to wait for the reactionaries in this country to create the preconditions and to establish violence, and that all they do then is to defend themselves against the violence, that is a complete hoax and a farce.
     Senator FERGUSON. In other words, they believe in the violence and advocate the violence in party circles to actually accomplish the overthrow of a capitalistic government, or a republic such as America ?
     Mrs. DODD. The whole Marxist-Leninist theory is based upon the fact that it is absolutely inevitable that you will have to sweep away the existing system by force and violence.
     May I just add this thing, Senator?
     Senator FERGUSON. Yes.
     Mrs. DODD. In party circles, they don't make that statement publicly. What they say is, "The workers will want more and more rights; and, in order to keep them from getting these rights, the reactionaries will use repression. And at that time the workers will have to rise and take over the police force, the armies, and so forth and so on.
     Senator FERGUSON. By force and violence?
     Mrs. DODD. By force and violence.
     Senator FERGUSON. You stated in the beginning that they some-times compromise with religion. I think, for instance, the evidence in the Internal Security Subcommittee indicates that in the South


they permit the meetings of the colored people to open with prayer under the same guise. Now, do they ever temporize with one of their principles in order to gain their end ?
     Mrs. DODD. No. This whole question of using ministers or using men of religion to help in many of their causes is just in order to win over more people who are intrenched in the religious life.
     Senator FERGUSON. At the present time they are unalterably opposed to the Smith Act, are they?
     Mrs. DODD. Yes; they are.
     Senator FERGUSON. That is one under which the Communists are being prosecuted?
     Mrs. DODD. That is right.
     Senator FERGUSON. Eleven in this city have been convicted and the Supreme Court has sustained the conviction. At any time have they ever temporized or stated that the Smith Act was of value?
     Mrs. DODD. Well, I remember at one time, back in 1940-41, when a group of Socialists were attempting to introduce resolutions in the various trade-unions against the Smith Act because the Smith Act was being used to prosecute the Trotskyites out in the Middle West, at that time we were instructed–      
     Senator FERGUSON. You say "We." Does that mean the Communists?
     Mrs. DODD. The Communist teachers or the Communist representatives in the various trade-unions were instructed not to give any aid or comfort to the passing of the resolutions against the Smith Act.
     Senator FERGUSON. In other words, that would indicate that at that particular time, when Trotskyites were being prosecuted under the Smith Act, the Communists were not asking for the repeal or condemning of the Smith Act; is that correct?
     Mrs. DODD. That is correct.
     Senator FERGUSON. In other words, it would indicate that they felt that the Trotskyites were a greater menace to them than the Smith Act. Is that the principle upon which they operate?
     Mrs. DODD. The principle that they operate on is that they don't go to the assistance of anyone they are deeply opposed to, even though there might be a question of civil rights involved.
     Senator FERGUSON. Do you want to ask some questions, Mr. Morris?
     Mr. MORRIS. I would just like to bring out one point the Senator covered, Dr. Dodd. What was the last date when you had access to Communist Party secrets? Of course, that is a relative term, I suppose, but when were you really, for the last time, in on Communist Party secrets?
     Mrs. DODD. I think the last meeting that I attended was the State convention of the Communist Party in the summer of 1948. I attended because I was a member of the State committee, even though I was persona non grata and even though that convention was a very painful thing for me to attend.
     Mr. MORRIS. Then you say it was 1952 before you really had broke away from the Communist Party completely, where you would in a position where you would tell, for instance, a Senate committ such as this one what transpired behind the closed doors of the Communist conspiracy?
     Mrs. DODD. That is true.


     Mr. MORRIS. So, what happened between 1948 and 1952, particularly as far as your case is concerned, because of the phenomenon involved, of time required to change from one side to the other, is lost to this committee, at least from your own experience?
     Mrs. DODD. Yes.
     There is one thing I would like to add in that. During that period you are beset by all kinds of fears. You are beset by fears of unpleasant publicity; you are beset by physical fears; you are beset by emotional fears; you are beset by the fact that the old world that you lived in, the friends that you had, are cutting away from you, or have already cut away from you, and you are left alone.
     And there is nothing more devastating than leaving a man or woman alone after having been surrounded or completely fenced in. During that period you have to sink or swim; you have to find some method of rationalizing this thing that has happened to you, or of finding some explanation for it.
     Mr. MORRIS. The question is, Senator, we have to now encounter the problem of what to do about some of the teachers who may be presently in the public-school system here in New York or in the private colleges.
     I think, Mr. Chairman, rather than to go into great detail with this witness here today about individual cases, we have subpenaed the following teachers—they are the first cases that we encountered—to come before this committee, and they are going to be here tomorrow.
So, with your permission, may we defer examining this witness on any question of any individuals at this time, and simply state which teachers are going to be subpenaed for tomorrow?
     Senator FERGUSON. I just want to say on the record that, before any individual is named, I want to make sure that the witness appreciates this. And that is why I asked some of these questions as to whether or not she believes that she can testify to the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, with a clear conscience.
     I ask you : Do you believe that you are now, when you have entirely broken with this line of thought, a free agent to testify before your country and your God?
     Mrs. DODD. I am a completely free agent, Senator Ferguson. On this whole question of the teachers, it is a very painful subject for me.
     As I said yesterday, I had a great deal of influence over some of these teachers.
     Senator FERGUSON. And over students, as I understand it.
     Mrs. DODD. And over students.
     And I am responsible for some of them. I am the person who is guilty for some of the things that have happened.
     And I said yesterday again that many of these teachers joined the Communist Party without knowing what they were joining. They joined because they thought it meant freedom of speech, because they thought it meant a fight against discrimination, or a fight for better teaching conditions, or a fight for better conditions for the children,
     Most of the motives by which they joined were good motives.
     I realize now, as I never did before, that what they got into was something which is contrary to any of the principles that they hold, that that is nothing but a cloak which is used for the purpose of really destroying some of these values.



     Unfortunately, many of the teachers are not convinced of that. myself, might never have been convinced if I hadn't been on the inside of the Communist Party, if I hadn't worked with the apparatus.
     I trust and hope that the boards of education, both in this city and elsewhere, will do everything they possibly can to enable these teachers to disentangle themselves, give them an opportunity to disentangle themselves, without either subjecting them to publicity which is unpleasant, or to reprisals within their chosen profession. I think they should be given a decent opportunity to disentangle themselves, at if they don't, then it seems to me that further action should be take
     Senator FERGUSON. You are of the opinion, are you, that the evil of communism, particularly in the minds of teachers of our youth, is a direct challenge to the security of America?
     Mrs. DODD. I do believe that.
     Senator FERGUSON. And do you believe that many teachers, if they realized, as you do, from the actual operation of communism, that they would disentangle themselves and in every way possible rectify or change their lives and their teachings in order that we might help in the security of America?
     Mrs. DODD. I believe that, Senator Ferguson, and I am grateful to your committee for giving me this opportunity to come forward at tell the story.
     Neither the Communists nor any liberal progressive organizatic has given me the opportunity to present the information I had, because the moment I was expelled from the Communist Party, the Teachers' Union, which I helped to build, and which I was very proud of, dropped me as if I were dead. I never since that time received a copy of their publication.
     Senator FERGUSON. Does not that indicate that it was controlled by the Communist Party?
     Mrs. DODD. That I know.
     But the thing which is more tragic than that is that their own thinking ceased at that particular point. They had known me as a person who had helped the teachers, but they never inquired "What made her change? What was the significant thing that made her change?”
     And at this particular point, what will happen is that they will say, "Well, she just went over to the reactionaries"; which is a very simple way of dismissing a story which needs to be told.
     Senator FERGUSON. Coming back to my question : If you do name people in this hearing, have you a free conscience, have you a clear understanding, that you can tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?
     Mrs. DODD. I will do my best to do that, and I think I can.
     Senator FERGUSON. You believe you can?
     Mrs. DODD. Yes.
     Senator FERGUSON. I would not want you to name anyone who, in your deep conscience, you could not name and believe, honestly believe, was as you described him. Do you understand that?
     Mrs. DODD. Yes.
     Mr. MORRIS. Mr. Chairman, may I request that I defer asking that particular witness individual names at this time?
     Mr. George Timone, who is the chairman of the law committee the board of education, has requested an opportunity to appear before


 this committee on behalf of the board of education to tell what particular steps the board has taken to combat the evils that we have been bringing forth in the last few days.
     Now, before we ask this particular witness any individual cases, may we defer that particular aspect of the testimony until after Mr. Timone has given testimony ?
     Senator FERGUSON. Yes.
     I mean this same thing, of course, Dr. Dodd, on all of your testimony, whether it is the name of a person or a description of an act, or any of your testimony.
     It must be on the basis that you are telling the truth with a free conscience and a recognition, as your oath requires, of your country and your God.
     Mrs. DODD. Senator Ferguson, on everything that I testified, I am completely free to testify.
     When it comes to the naming of teachers, I am, of course, reluctant, not because of anything else, but because I feel that the teachers are not aware of what they are doing, and the question is, When must we stop giving them the opportunity of being aware?
     Senator FERGUSON. That is the big problem, and sometimes the over-all good requires testimony at a hearing that normally you would say, "We will pass it over."
     But the over-all good that can be done is the paramount issue, the general welfare of this Nation.
     I know that as you now speak you are going to keep that in mind when you testify.
     Mrs. DODD. I am.
     Senator FERGUSON. All right, you may proceed as you desire, then, on that line, Mr. Morris.
     Mr. MORRIS. Mr. Chairman, Mr. Mandel, our director of research, has compiled, during the last few days, from his research work, a list of activities concerning which this particular witness is on record as participating in. We would like, just as background for the testimony that the witness has given up to date, and rather to present as a symbol and sort of as an example of what work she has been doing through the last 10 years for the Communist Party, we would like to review some of these points at this time, because, Mr. Chairman, I think it is relevant.
     Senator FERGUSON. All right, you may proceed on that line.
     Mr. MORRIS. Dr. Dodd, you have been listed as active and a member of the National Council of the American Peace Mobilization. According to Mr. Mandel's research, you were active in that organization in 1940. Will you tell us how your position as legislative representative of the Teachers' Union and the relationship that you had to the Communist Party at that time, how that relationship brought you into the American Peace Mobilization?
     Mrs. DODD. Well, the American Peace Mobilization used a good many professional and literate people for speaking engagements and for writing material for the Peace Mobilization. I was asked to speak at hundreds of meetings of the American Peace Mobilization.
     Genuinely, I believed in peace at that particular time. I believed at that time that the only way to keep America safe and strong was to keep her out of war.
     Mr. MORRIS. Did other teachers participate in that?



     Mrs. DODD. The teachers we used were, to a very large extent, in the entire peace mobilization movement. I mean practically every union teacher who could speak at all was mobilized and used in her own community.
     And the professors, or the people from the colleges, were used on a city-wide, State-wide, and Nation-wide basis. We were used to testify in Washington; we were used to lead delegations against certain acts, or to lead delegations for certain activities.
     Mr. MORRIS. Dr. Dodd, what happened to that organization, the . American Peace Mobilization?
     Mrs. DODD. Well, it had a number of transformations. And finally, when the Soviet Union was attacked in 1941, it was changed to an organization for the support of the war. I mean that was one of the most difficult jumps to make, because people who had come to fight for peace had become almost—they had almost believed in no war at all, under any circumstances.
     They reached the point where the Quakers stood. But with the attack upon the Soviet Union, the course was shifted overnight, and the same chairman who had been chairman of the peace organizations now became the chairman of the war mobilization committee.
     I have forgotten the name that was given to it.
     Senator FERGUSON. So that consideration was being given to the Russian Government or Communist Party?
     Mrs. DODD. There is no doubt in my mind that the entire peace program of the Communist Party of America followed every one of the vagaries of the needs of the Soviet Union and that it shifted as: the Soviet Union's need for peace or for war or for allies shifted.
     Senator FERGUSON. And it was the interest of the Soviet Unions rather than the welfare of America that was controlling the acts of the Communist Party and of this organization; is that right?
     Mrs. DODD. It didn't seem so at first because the emphasis was upon saving our boys from going overseas, saving our boys from being killed.
     But as the thing unfolded, it was the interest of the Soviet Union and the policy of the Soviet Union that set our political policy.
     Senator FERGUSON. Go ahead, Mr. Morris.
     Mr. MORRIS. We have here a committee of Sponsors for the Celebration of Fifteen Years of Birobidjan. You are listed there as a member in 1943. Will you tell us the nature of that activity, Dr. Dodd ?
     Mrs. DODD. As I say, I was listed on hundreds of organizations; and many times I didn't even know I was listed. As a person deeply involved in the Communist movement, someone at headquarters would be assigned to get up a committee for this, that, and the other thing, and they would take up people's names whose names meant something in the mass movements.
     Senator FERGUSON. You do not claim that you then were a particular participant in all of these matters, do you?
     Mrs. DODD. No, I wasn't.
     Senator FERGUSON. And you would not then know of the activity or the person, would you?
     Mrs. DODD. On this particular committee, I never attended a committee meeting. My name appears as one of the sponsors, or one of the committee members, but I never attended a meeting. I don't know anything about it.



     All they did was put my name down as one of the sponsors.
     Senator FERGUSON. You might know some Communists, but not all?
     Mrs. DODD. That is true.
     Senator FERGUSON. You do not pretend to know all; do you?
     Mrs. DODD. No; I wouldn't pretend to know all.
     Mr. MORRIS. Dr. Dodd, you are listed as a speaker at the Greater New York Emergency Conference on Inalienable Rights in 1940. Do you have any particular recollection of that organization?
     Mrs. DODD. Yes, I do. I attended that conference.
     Mr. MORRIS. You are listed as a speaker.
     Mrs. DODD. I spoke at that time,nt that conference.
     Mr. MORRIS. What was the nature of that conference?
     Mrs. DODD. If I remember correctly, it was sort of a precursor of the Civil Rights Congress. Essentially, I think that particular year they emphasized the question of peace.
     Mr. MORRIS. You are here listed as a signer of a statement on behalf of the Joint Committee for Trade Union Rights. What was that committee, Dr. Dodd?
     Mrs. DODD. What year was that?
     Mr. MORRIS. That was in 1940.
     Mrs. DODD. I think that that was a committee which was established for the purpose of promoting the peace program. I am not sure; if I could have something to refresh my recollection—you know a lot of these committees all had similar names and similar objectives, and it is very difficult to remember.
     Mr. MORRIS. Here, Dr. Dodd, you are listed as a sponsor of the Conference on Constitutional Liberties in America. Tell us about that particular activity.
     Mrs. DODD. What year was that?
     Mr. MORRIS. That was in 1939.
     And in 1942, you were a member of the executive committee of the National Federation for Constitutional Liberties.
     Mrs. DODD. I remember the National Federation for Constitutional Liberties. I was active in it, spoke for it, and spoke at some of their panels and discussions. That, too, was one of the organizations, a precursor of the Civil Rights Congress. There were a number of different groups: Congress for Inalienable Rights, the Federation for Constitutional Rights, the old ILD, and all of these were finally merged into the Civil Rights Congress in about 1945, 1946.
     Mr. MORRIS. In 1944, you are listed here as active in the Shappes Defense Committee. Can you tell us what that was ?
     Mrs. DODD. I was chairman of that Schappes Defense Committee. Schappes was a school teacher who had been dropped from the school system because of the Rapp-Coudert committee, was indicted for perjury, and I was chairman of the committee to raise money for his defense and to arrange for his legal defense, and to help support his wife.
     MR. MORRIS. Dr. Dodd, did many teachers lose their positions at the time of the Rapp-Coudert investigation?
     Mrs. DODD. Approximately 52.
     Mr. MORRIS. Was a loss of job for them something that was hard on their families?



     And this, Mr. Chairman, I think is a point that we should really develop as much as possible.
     Senator FERGUSON. If it is what Communists do, I think it is very material.
     Mr. MORRIS. That is right, sir.
     Mrs. DODD. I guess every crisis in one's life is a painful thing for a family. A man loses his job, let's say, at City College or Brooklyn College, or any one of the colleges. It is a dislocation for his family and for his children. At the time of the Rapp-Coudert committee, however, we were well organized to help take care of all who lost their jobs, all who wanted to be taken care of.
     Of course, we didn't go out seeking for it. Anybody who wanted to work with the union, work with the Communist group, could be taken care of. We raised money to support the families. We established the School for Democracy to give these men an opportunity to teach to a wider group of adults rather than to the children in the school system.
     Senator FERGUSON. Was that by the union, or the Communists?
     Mrs. DODD. It was by the union officially. It was the Communist nucleus within the union that was the sponsor of it.
     Most of these 52 men or women who were dropped finally got better jobs than they had previously had. Most of them did better economically than they had in the school system, where the salaries were pretty limited.
     Mr. MORRIS. So, as far as economic detriment is concerned, there was none at all in the individual cases of those who were dropped?
     Mrs. DODD. It was an uneconomic thing, but in a long time they bettered by it.
     Senator FERGUSON. Did you know of any people who were not directly connected with the Communist movement that were dropped because of that hearing?
     Mrs. DODD. I have to go over those names, Senator Ferguson. I don't remember.
     Senator FERGUSON. You do not recall any at the present time?
     Mrs. DODD. No, I do not.
     Mr. MORRIS. Dr. Dodd, yesterday you testified that you had no direct connection with the process of indoctrination of children in the classroom. Is there an implication thereby that the Communist Party did not provide for that particular thing, indoctrination of children?
     Mrs. DODD. Well, the Communist Party always was very active in having youth committees, and the youth committees, in addition to politicalizing the youth and having them participate in political life, also brought up certain questions of what was going on in the schools. But the connection was always from the youth leader to someone in the party apparatus who was in charge of youth. I had nothing to do with that.
     In the Teachers' Union as a union we had an educational policies committee, and since the union was dominated by Communists, that is. a promaterialist philosophy of education would be sponsored in the educational policies committee of the teachers' union.
     Senator FERGUSON. And would it then be the policy that any Communist in the schools would carry out that program?
     Mrs. DODD. Generally, yes; as far as he was able to understand ii and put it into effect.



     Senator FERGUSON. So then you would say that there was a definite plan or program or party line for the education of our youth, would you?
     Mrs. DODD. There was party activity on that question. I can't put my finger on any specific line. It was a materialist line, and it differed at different periods.
     Mr. MORRIS.. Dr. Dodd, in your activities within the Communist Party and on behalf of the teachers' union, did you have any dealings with the Association of Internes [sic] and Medical Students?
     Mrs. DODD. Yes.
     Mr. MORRIS. Will you tell us what the nature of those experiences gas?
     Mrs. DODD. Well, at one time, I mean certain of the group that was organizing the organization came in to see me. I couldn't name their names at this particular moment. I don't feel that I would remember .any of their names even after they came to see me. But they came to see me as a member of the Communist Party to help them, give them some ideas as to how to organize this organization.
     Mr. MORRIS. Mr. Chairman, on these organizations, since they are not directly within the scope of our inquiry, we have not pressed the witness to give us the names of the individuals who are involved in that.
     Senator FERGUSON. But I would like if the record would show and she can state the policy of that particular group of people, and so forth, the principles underlying it.
     Mr. MORRIS. What was the policy, to your knowledge, Dr. Dodd?
     Mrs. DODD. At that time there were two main problems they were interested in. One was the question of medical education, and they were having a problem with many of their young students who were .going abroad, going to Scotland to study, having a hard time getting them back here and getting them accredited here.
     There was a question of establishing a medical education here.
     Then there was a question of salaries for these interns. They were increasing sort of on a trade-union basis, increasing the salaries and working conditions of the interns.
     Mr. MORRIS. Again, to your knowledge, was the Communist Party exploiting those difficulties that existed ?
     Mrs. DODD. There is no doubt in my mind that any organization which the Communist Party helps to establish they may improve the conditions temporarily, but, in the long run, it is intended to attach a new group of people to its chariot to use in the long run for the "inevitable day when you are going to change this Government".
     Mr. MORRIS. To your knowledge, was the past activity of the Communist Party in connection with the Association of Internes and Medical Students such activity?
     Mrs. DODD. Yes.
     Mr. MORRIS. What about the Physicians Forum? Do you know anything about the Physicians Forum?
     Mrs. DODD. The Physicians Forum was also established primarily by the Communist Party.
     Mr. MORRIS. For what purpose?
     Mrs. DODD. Please get me straight. I mean I don't want to imply that everyone who was in the Physicians Forum, or even everyone who was on the organizing committee, was a Communist, but the


initiative for organizing the Physicians Forum came from the Communist Party, came from the ninth floor, where the national committee of the Communist Party existed.
     Senator FERGUSON. You do not intend to say, do you, in these cases, that all the people connected with the movement were Communists?
     Mrs. DODD. As a matter of fact, there were certain of these organizations where the Communists were in a very small minority, but they were in key positions and placed in such a way that they were able to utilize the organization.    
     Senator FERGUSON. With many organizations that Mr. Morris is reading this morning, there is, under the name, an indication of the nature of the movement. What can be better, for instance, than "protection of the inalienable rights of people"?
     How are the people of America going to guard themselves in the future against the Communist penetrating, taking over, or starting and using for their benefit such organizations?
     What is your answer, as a former high Communist official? You helped to take innocent people down the road to communism; you helped them into communism; you converted them to communism, and you say unconsciously they got in. Many of them today, you say you doubt that they actually know what communism is. How are you going to tell the people of America and the world, for that matter, how to avoid this entrapment, this unconscious placing themselves at first into the hands of Communists and later becoming a tool of an international conspiracy to establish a dictator or communism in America by force and violence?
     I think that is one of the big problems. What are you going to say about that?
     Mrs. DODD. I think, first of all, those who are the responsible leaders in America have to take away from the Communists the issues which the Communists utilize.
     You take, for instance, what they have done with the Negro people and the whole question of discrimination. Well, if the responsible leaders of this country handled that problem themselves on a local basis, within their churches, within their social organizations, within politics, the Communists will not have that issue.
     More people have to have a conscience and a passion for improving conditions, who are committed to the principles of a democratic people.
     I think we need to train people also in how to recognize communism, and how they operate. I was very happy to see the National Education Association suggest that courses be given.
     I think that if you had the experience of seeing how the Communists work, you can spot it almost immediately. You spot it during the period of the "united front," and during the period when they are against everything.
     Essentially, no Congress and no Senate can do the job by itself. This is a job that has to be done by all the people and all the organizations.
     Senator FERGUSON. Yesterday you indicated that in your teaching, in your activities, that you had actually enslaved the minds of certain Americans through the educational process, and the evidence seems to indicate that.

     Now, how are the people going to recognize that their minds are being enslaved, their consciences, and their souls are being enslaved, by Communists in America? How are they going to recognize the enslaver?
     Mrs. DODD. Your committee is doing one of the jobs of explaining to the American public how this thing works. I have a great deal of respect for the work that the committee did in the Institute of Pacific Relations. I don't know how many people read the reports; I did. I learned things there that I didn't know as a Communist. I learned certain things which I had never known. That was a new phase of the Communist conspiracy of which I was not a party to, and I was not aware of.
     I think it is important that that kind of information reach a maxi-mum of the people and that the men in public office be dedicated to putting the facts before the public and letting them know.
     Of course, I don't think anything can be done without the help of God.
     Senator FERGUSON. Do you think it is also an educational process? Mrs. Donn. I think it is an educational process. I think the in-formation has to be available.
      I think that, in addition to everything else, I think we have to get on our knees and pray for help. I don't think we can do it just by our intellect alone.
     I think also America needs to be united. The Communists are -al-ways talking about unity. By heavens, America needs to be united on this question. We are not going to give power into the hands of those who would use the anti-Communist movement to further aggravate the conditions in America, but we've got to unite for an improvement in the conditions and for the defeat of this evil.
     Mr. MORRIS. Mr. Chairman, may I suggest that we defer any further questioning of this witness until we hear from Mr. Timone?
     Senator FERGUSON. Is he here?
     Mr. MORRIS. He is here today.
     Mr. Chairman, the following are the teachers who are being asked to come in here tomorrow afternoon, at 2 o'clock. The names of those teachers are :
     Mr. Louis Relin, Mr. Harold Collins, Mr. Louis Cohen, Mr. Leonard Koegel, Mr. Lou Spindell, Mr. Henry F. Mins, Helen Mins Robbins, Mary Daniman, Florence Waks, and Meyer Case.
     They will be the witnesses who will be here tomorrow afternoon in open session.
      Senator FERGUSON. Will you see that they are notified so that there will be no question of their getting notice?
      Mr. MORRIS. That is right. Most of those teachers have testified in executive session.
      Senator FERGUSON. I appreciate that. But notify them as to the time they are to appear in this courtroom and where it is, so that there will be no question, at 2 o'clock tomorrow.
     Mr. MORRIS. Yes, sir; that shall be done.
     Mr. SCHMIDT. Mr. Chairman, does that mean my client and I can leave for this morning, or do you want us to stay here?
     Senator FERGUSON. I would rather you stay, if you could. I am not requiring you to stay.



     Mr. MORRIS. Let the record show, Mr. Chairman, that even if Dr. Dodd is not called this morning, that she is to remain available fo future testimony.
     Senator FERGUSON. Yes.
     I would have to, on the record, indicate that the subpena is going ti be continued because I do not want it to appear that we are closing your testimony. There are some loose ends that I feel personally w ought to get information on.
     Mr. MORRIS. Mr. Chairman, the problem we have at this time is t what extent should this committee go into the naming of individua teachers who are Communists, and I think after Mr. Timone speaks for instance, on behalf of the board of education and other interested parties, we can then determine whether or not we are going into individual names in open session.
So will you stand by, Dr. Dodd?
     Mr. SCHMIDT. Thank you very much.
     Senator FERGUSON. I indicated yesterday on this record, Mr. Morris that it is not the desire of the committee to try and tell the boards of education who shall work for them or what they shall teach, or what they shall do in the operation of their schools, but we are glad if the board of education, through any representatives, wants to appear here and testify. We are glad to take their testimony.